Red Hood and the Outlaws #15 Preview/Discussion

[Caivu]

She is probably next to Damian (and depending on the writer Tim) one of the most arrogant Batfamily members.

She's really not arrogant at all; it's situational at best, as I described. She just brooks very little bullshit, or what she perceives as such.

And honestly I find this a little wired since she is imo still one of the least experienced members and if you look at her lost year also hardly perfect.

Do you have to bring up her experience (that you remain incorrect about) every time?

Anyway, she's knows she's not perfect, and nothing in this issue indicates otherwise.

[JasonTodd428]

What do you think doesn't sync up? Her calling Waller is the only thing questionable that I can see.

Her being so arrogant and a bit presumptuous for starters. She's never struck me as the arrogant type and I never felt like she was written that way in the past. I also didn't like the superior attitude she had there and I also think it really clashes with the first few pages of the book as well. That, in a nutshell, is what is bothering me here about her portrayal here.

I don't think she was being literal with that first part. She's just needling Jason and Artemis, since they barged in on the Belfry with weapons drawn. To me, the implication of what she's saying is "I don't know why Batman keeps you around, because you're too hotheaded."

What else was she expecting they would do since she and the others kidnapped Biz? Seems rather odd that she wouldn't have expected them to come in "guns blazing" in this case. It felt very off to me. And why does she need to be so dismissive of the Outlaws in the first place? That again doesn't strike me as true to what I remember of her character in the past.

Same deal with the second line. Kate's generally dismissive of people she doesn't respect, and in that moment at least, she doesn't have much for Jason.

That's my problem with it. She dismissing him out turn and basically saying that he is no better than a child.

Like what?

Like the fact that Jason is really working from the shadows on the side of the Bats, doing things that no other Bat can do because of his status as an Outlaw. Wouldn't Bruce have made Kate aware of that fact. Tim seemed to know it and Dick knows it too. Seems odd to leave Kate out of loop there.

[JasonTodd428]

Super futurist, or at least i think that is supposed to be that, bit i don't remwnber explained, they are just very advanced because.... reasons, honestly i doubt that Tynion put much thougth into it.

It's at least 10 years more advanced than present-day DCU tech, and includes some kind of extraterrestrial components. Their airships are the exact same model used by the Colony in the bad future, so it's possible they're time-displaced.

Thanks for the information. So what Biz and Waller want is some really advanced tec? Now I'm really curious what it is and why they want it.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

What do you think doesn't sync up? Her calling Waller is the only thing questionable that I can see.



I don't think she was being literal with that first part. She's just needling Jason and Artemis, since they barged in on the Belfry with weapons drawn. To me, the implication of what she's saying is "I don't know why Batman keeps you around, because you're too hotheaded."

Same deal with the second line. Kate's generally dismissive of people she doesn't respect, and in that moment at least, she doesn't have much for Jason.

After they kidnapped Bizarro from the Outlaws' base, thus not making Kate and her team actions any better.

[Caivu]

Her being so arrogant and a bit presumptuous for starters. She's never struck me as the arrogant type and I never felt like she was written that way in the past. I also didn't like the superior attitude she had there and I also think it really clashes with the first few pages of the book as well. That, in a nutshell, is what is bothering me here about her portrayal here.

I really don't see how she's being arrogant, at least in an out-of-character way. This was pretty similar to her very first meeting with Jason, and I can see why she'd revert to that in the moment after being broken in on.

What else was she expecting they would do since she and the others kidnapped Biz? Seems rather odd that she wouldn't have expected them to come in "guns blazing" in this case. It felt very off to me.

I don't think she knew about the teleportation doors. The plan was probably to have Bizarro interrogated and back before Jason and Artemis knew, and certainly before they'd be able to track him down.

And why does she need to be so dismissive of the Outlaws in the first place? That again doesn't strike me as true to what I remember of her character in the past.

That's my problem with it. She dismissing him out turn and basically saying that he is no better than a child.

Again, she's prodding them a little. The Outlaws are acting oddly from her perspective and it's reasonable for her to think there might be serious internal problems with them. That's exactly why they decide to interrogate Bizarro.

Like the fact that Jason is really working from the shadows on the side of the Bats, doing things that no other Bat can do because of his status as an Outlaw. Wouldn't Bruce have made Kate aware of that fact. Tim seemed to know it and Dick knows it too. Seems odd to leave Kate out of loop there.

But she does know that, at least generally; she says so in the first scene.

After they kidnapped Bizarro from the Outlaws' base, thus not making Kate and her team actions any better.

They chose a relatively peaceful route, at least.

[JasonTodd428]

I really don't see how she's being arrogant, at least in an out-of-character way. This was pretty similar to her very first meeting with Jason, and I can see why she'd revert to that in the moment after being broken in on.

It seems to me that she is being extremely arrogant here in an over the top way. In all honesty if she is ordinarily being portrayed as a bit arrogant these days that seems really out of character to me. Like I said she's never struck me as the arrogant type.

I don't think she knew about the teleportation doors. The plan was probably to have Bizarro interrogated and back before Jason and Artemis knew, and certainly before they'd be able to track him down.

Still she had to know they would come for him especially since it was Clayface that she sent to take him. She left her own bread crumbs there after all in the form of the clay that Basil left behind and those bread crumbs were exactly why Jason went in guns blazing in the first place. I don't believe that the plan was for her to interrogate Biz before they could track him down. I think that was a set up to get Jason and Artemis there. IF that is true then that does cast her attitude and arrogance in a different light.

Again, she's prodding them a little. The Outlaws are acting oddly from her perspective and it's reasonable for her to think there might be serious internal problems with them. That's exactly why they decide to interrogate Bizarro.

I don't get the feeling that Kate was interrogating Bizarro because she thought there was some kind of serious internal problem with the Outlaws. The only questions that were asked to him directly were about his fortress and why the Outlaws were in Gotham neither of which have anything to do with that at all. It seems to me that they were interested in why the Outlaws were there.

But she does know that, at least generally; she says so in the first scene.

Clearly she doesn't know the details though and that's what I'm talking about.

[Caivu]

It seems to me that she is being extremely arrogant here in an over the top way. In all honesty if she is ordinarily being portrayed as a bit arrogant these days that seems really out of character to me. Like I said she's never struck me as the arrogant type.

I dunno what to tell you there; she has similar examples of this going all the way back to 52, and it's almost always toward people she dislikes in some way. It's affected arrogance if it's anything. She's not an arrogant character, but she can certainly act that way to those she doesn't like.

Still she had to know they would come for him especially since it was Clayface that she sent to take him. She left her own bread crumbs there after all in the form of the clay that Basil left behind and those bread crumbs were exactly why Jason went in guns blazing in the first place. I don't believe that the plan was for her to interrogate Biz before they could track him down. I think that was a set up to get Jason and Artemis there. IF that is true then that does cast her attitude and arrogance in a different light.

I don't think there's anything to indicate that was intentional. I guess this could still have been planned between her and Bizarro, but I doubt it right now.

I don't get the feeling that Kate was interrogating Bizarro because she thought there was some kind of serious internal problem with the Outlaws. The only questions that were asked to him directly were about his fortress and why the Outlaws were in Gotham neither of which have anything to do with that at all. It seems to me that they were interested in why the Outlaws were there.

Yes. Because they were acting strangely.

Clearly she doesn't know the details though and that's what I'm talking about.

Why should she?
She knows enough to know that they were okay until this weird message and invisible base showed up.

[JasonTodd428]

.I don't think there's anything to indicate that was intentional. I guess this could still have been planned between her and Bizarro, but I doubt it right now.

And there's nothing there to say that it wasn't all intentional either. It definitely was intentional on Bizarro's part because he says so. As for Kat (regardless of whether she is in cahoots with Biz or not) her luring the Outlaws to the Belfry could have been intentional as well. Why else would she have sent the one member of her team likely to leave traces of himself behind, traces that would be very familiar to a former Robin? I'm thinking there was some kind of set up here on her part even if the others were entirely unaware of it.

Yes. Because they were acting strangely.

I will agree that Bizarro was acting strangely on the Outlaws behave in order to facilitate his plan.

Why should she?
She knows enough to know that they were okay until this weird message and invisible base showed up.

I would assume Bruce would have told her or that being a Bat she would have take steps to find out those details if only for her own information. Heck maybe Tim has a dossier on them or something. As it stands it appears she doesn't know much about them if she thinks that Jason's team changes all the time. Also if she knows enough to know that they are okay and that Batman has more or less sanctioned them then why resort to kidnapping at all when they could have just as easily went to the fortress themselves and had a talk with the Outlaws about their reason for being in Gotham. Seems a tad odd that they singled out Bizarro as the ringleader here as well, when Jason is supposedly the leader of the Outlaws.

[Caivu]

Why else would she have sent the one member of her team likely to leave traces of himself behind, traces that would be very familiar to a former Robin?

Because Clayface is the only one of them who could both enter and exit unnoticed and capture Bizarro.

I would assume Bruce would have told her or that being a Bat she would have take steps to find out those details if only for her own information. Heck maybe Tim has a dossier on them or something. As it stands it appears she doesn't know much about them if she thinks that Jason's team changes all the time.

I thought that was just a nod to the New 52 roster.

[JasonTodd428]

Because Clayface is the only one of them who could both enter and exit unnoticed and capture Bizarro.

I can buy that he could capture Bizarro or that he at least had the best chance to do so but I don't buy that with as high tech as the fortress is that he could just enter and then leave with Bizarro without tripping some kind of alarm. I'm also not 100% certain he could take Bizarro if Bizarro really didn't want to be taken. Seems awfully convenient that he doesn't set off one alarm to me as does the fact that Clayface then leaves evidence that he was there behind, evidence that a former Robin will find familiar. Don't you find that extremely odd?

I thought that was just a nod to the New 52 roster.

Here's the quote: "Red Hood and a changing roster of gray hats."

While it probably is a nod the way its is phased also seems to imply that his "team" has a rotating roster which is not the case.

[Caivu]

I can buy that he could capture Bizarro or that he at least had the best chance to do so but I don't buy that with as high tech as the fortress is that he could just enter and then leave with Bizarro without tripping some kind of alarm. I'm also not 100% certain he could take Bizarro if Bizarro really didn't want to be taken. Seems awfully convenient that he doesn't set off one alarm to me as does the fact that Clayface then leaves evidence that he was there behind, evidence that a former Robin will find familiar. Don't you find that extremely odd?

No. Luke gets suspicious of that while they're interrogating him. He's all like "You have this high-tech base, but Clayface got in?" He knows Bizarro let them in, just like how they figured out Bizarro's message was baiting them.

[The Whovian]

Geez. Really disappointed in this issue and Lobdell. He really jobbed Jason, Artemis and Bizarro.

I know Batwoman, Cass and the others are very skilled, but let's be real, Bizarro could destroy them by himself. Add in Jason and Artemis and the 'Tec team shouldn't be able to do what they did in this issue.

[Caivu]

Geez. Really disappointed in this issue and Lobdell. He really jobbed Jason, Artemis and Bizarro.

I know Batwoman, Cass and the others are very skilled, but let's be real, Bizarro could destroy them by himself. Add in Jason and Artemis and the 'Tec team shouldn't be able to do what they did in this issue.

Bizarro wanted to get captured and eventually taken to Belle Reve, based on his narration. Why, we don't know. Jason and Artemis were unaware of this. I thought it went pretty fairly otherwise.

[kiwiliko]

Geez. Really disappointed in this issue and Lobdell. He really jobbed Jason, Artemis and Bizarro.

I know Batwoman, Cass and the others are very skilled, but let's be real, Bizarro could destroy them by himself. Add in Jason and Artemis and the 'Tec team shouldn't be able to do what they did in this issue.

Fairly certain Bizarro definitely said he was holding back a lot of things in his thought bubbles. They pretty much fought most of the fight without Biz and Jason in the end gets taken down because he's distracted worrying over Bizarro. For a fight that I knew was suppose to end up getting them into prison I thought it was played alright. Not to mention I don't know what kind of hell on earth tazer the Tec team packs but last panel shows it burned through both his leather jacket and armour which I'm kinda impressed Jason survived.

[Talon1load]

My biggest issue with this is Batwoman. I just think she's an extremely overrated character. I don't understand how she's supposed to be such a badass when she has so little experience. I've heard people say she has military experience but she doesn't. She was kicked out of a military academy. Trust me, when a second lieutenant comes out of an academy they don't know ****. I get that she may have had some additional training from her dad but I just don't see how she would be made a leader over others. I think Red Hood should have been able to take her easily since he's been doing it longer and was trained directly by Batman.