Retailer Fury At Marvel NYCC Panel

[JackDaw]

I tried researching this a bit. Everything I found (and I will concede that it was not very much), pointed to paperbacks being made as a cheaper alternative to hardcovers (both on the production side of things and as way to entice customers who might not impulse buy the thirty-buck hardcover, but might if it was a fraction of the cost). Nothing about them being intended to be thrown away after one read (and I can say that paperbacks last a lot longer than you're giving them credit for). Is there good source of info on this?

However, you have gotten me really curious how what people actually do do with them after the fact. Are we, to borrow an Apollo 13 quote, comparing what they're made to do vs. what they can do, and all that.

In my case it's a mix. I either take them down to one of the local charity shop, or pass them onto friends and family. I can't remember ever chucking one out after one read. (I have occasionally chucked out really old ones after reading...stuff I bought tenth hand from a charity shop or passed to me from friends/ family where I thought condition was terrible.)

That..passing them on to a charity shop or to a friend..is the norm for people I know well.

There's also a fairly strong market..of course..in buying pretty old paperbacks on platforms like Ebay. I have got some stuff no longer in print from favourite authors such as Victor Canning at very low prices.

[Redjack]

Ten bucks for a normal-sized paperback, twelve-ish for the newer taller size, twenty-give or take for the "trade paperback" size. That's priced for a disposable product (esp. one that can last awhile)? Regardless of what the intended use of the paperback format is by the publishers, that is not "priced like that." (Two or three bucks would be priced like that.)

Prices are what the company sets to make the highest profit possible. They are not directly tied to production costs. Comics cost considerably more to purchase than they do to make. Considerably. Same wth books, etc.

Do you know what happens to unpurchased paperbacks? They are destroyed and the covers returned to the publisher to PROVE they were destroyed. You don't do that wth something you made for longevity.

Hmm. I tried researching this a bit.

You don't need to "research" it. That's what happens. I did it myself, hundreds of times, when I was a book store clerk.

Everything I found (and I will concede that it was not very much), pointed to paperbacks being made as a cheaper alternative to hardcovers (both on the production side of things and as way to entice customers who might not impulse buy the thirty-buck hardcover, but might if it was a fraction of the cost).

Just as I've been saying.

Nothing about them being intended to be thrown away after one read (and I can say that paperbacks last a lot longer than you're giving them credit for). Is there good source of info on this?

I never said "after one read." That was you guys. I said, "in a relatively short time after purchase/reading."

However, you have gotten me really curious how what people actually do do with them after the fact. Are we, to borrow an Apollo 13 quote, comparing what they're made to do vs. what they can do, and all that.

No one cares what people do wth them after the fact. What matters is why and how they're made. Most people do not collect books or comics or other periodicals. We know this because most homes (the vast majority) are not filled wth books (paperbacks or otherwise), comics or other periodicals. They are cheap, disposable fiction. This is not a debate point or a matter of opinion. It is a fact.

[Redjack]

That's not 100% accurate yes paperback books and magazines are destroyed when returned for reimbursement I myself have already said that here when discussing some of the unfair advantages chain stores have over small businesses. But CDs when they were a thing, Games, and Gaming Accessories were/are also destroyed for reimbursement purposes and those are definitely mean to have some longevity and part of destroying unsold product is to help stop it from flooding the market and undercutting prices. Fact is there is a whole market for used books including paperbacks. Paperbacks are a cheap alternative to hardbacks in some cases and there own thing in others cheap doesn't equate disposable and if a business thinks that then they are foolish given there is a whole industry dedicated to used/old comics and books.

So what?

The publisher doesn't make any money off the ancillary collector's market. No one in publishing makes a dime if you find a first edition Poe collection and sell t for a million bucks. That's what "after market" means. Paperbacks and periodicals are cheap and mass produced for rapid and serial consumption. They are meant to be quickly used and then disposed of. And, yes, that's 100% accurate. Nobody is talking about "CDs and games, etc." They have nothing to do wth this.

[Triniking1234]

I never said "after one read." That was you guys. I said, "in a relatively short time after purchase/reading."

You see that's where the confusion started because...

that makes you a collector. comics are designed to be disposed of once read. just like all monthly magazines.

can be interpreted as read once then dump which is why some people started to protest.

[kilderkin]

Prices are what the company sets to make the highest profit possible. They are not directly tied to production costs. Comics cost considerably more to purchase than they do to make. Considerably. Same wth books, etc.



You don't need to "research" it. That's what happens. I did it myself, hundreds of times, when I was a book store clerk.



Just as I've been saying.



I never said "after one read." That was you guys. I said, "in a relatively short time after purchase/reading."



No one cares what people do wth them after the fact. What matters is why and how they're made. Most people do not collect books or comics or other periodicals. We know this because most homes (the vast majority) are not filled wth books (paperbacks or otherwise), comics or other periodicals. They are cheap, disposable fiction. This is not a debate point or a matter of opinion. It is a fact.

Would it be fair to say publishers have for some time realised that some portion of the market do collect and have produced product to entice them

Things like pre bagged books, special covers, items labelled as collectors items (especially in the nadir of the 90s)

I mean I know those are just gimmicks to get sales, but they are aimed at collectors arnt they, however small a portion of the market that is?

If not what purpose would those gimmicks have?

I'm just curious here

Interestingly most of the people I know that buy comics do indeed have rooms full of them, much to their families chagrin, but of course I suppose they are likely atypical

[Redjack]

You see that's where the confusion started because...



can be interpreted as read once then dump which is why some people started to protest.

only if one doesn't speak english well.

"once read" is not the same as "read once."

[kilderkin]

only if one doesn't speak english well.

"once read" is not the same as "read once."

Well to be fair this forum might have lots of people with English not their first language but your point is still correct

[SignorMiracolo]

I know the production costs are different. The buyers aren't likely to care about that, though.

For something closer to home, Raina Telgemeier's graphic novels are $10.99 and a quick check on Amazon shows Drama and Smile for $7-8. Amulet by Kazu Kubuishi is $12.99 per 200-page volume and there's a box set with 7 books for $58.70 on Amazon. Big Nate by Lincoln Peirce is $9.99.

Well, on Amazon you can find most super hero trade paperbacks at an average of 10-14$ depending on the title. At this level I don't think the page count counts (pun not intended), if I am interested in a book I won't buy another because the former it's 120 and the latter 200 pages, especially if the price is similar. It's just that most young adults are more interested in Manga than super hero comics. Probably because until a few years 99% of super hero comics catered to a single demographic: white 30-something bro-males. But with this demographic the problem of the cost of monthlies book is moot, they would never buy them, they buy online or in book stores. Imho, when the offer is there, this market responds. Young adults buy Ms Marvel, they buy Saga, The Wicked + The Divine, Bitch Planet, and they buy a lot of them. Outside the DM Bat Man or Spider Man are nothing compared to Saga, Ms. Marvel or W+D. I am sure that if Marvel keep pushing in the right direction (YA and kids oriented books) while the DM may suffer comics in the long run will only benefits.

[FUBAR007]

Most people do not collect books or comics or other periodicals. We know this because most homes (the vast majority) are not filled wth books (paperbacks or otherwise)...

I think you're being charitable. I think most homes aren't filled with books (paperbacks or otherwise) because most people don't read books. Period. (To be fair, I'm a cynic.)

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the vast majority of people who still buy printed books are collectors and bibliophiles. At least those under age 50. I suspect that, at this point, most fiction readers who throw the material away after they've read it have switched to e-books.

[rui no onna]

Well, on Amazon you can find most super hero trade paperbacks at an average of 10-14$ depending on the title. At this level I don't think the page count counts (pun not intended), if I am interested in a book I won't buy another because the former it's 120 and the latter 200 pages, especially if the price is similar. It's just that most young adults are more interested in Manga than super hero comics. Probably because until a few years 99% of super hero comics catered to a single demographic: white 30-something bro-males. But with this demographic the problem of the cost of monthlies book is moot, they would never buy them, they buy online or in book stores. Imho, when the offer is there, this market responds. Young adults buy Ms Marvel, they buy Saga, The Wicked + The Divine, Bitch Planet, and they buy a lot of them. Outside the DM Bat Man or Spider Man are nothing compared to Saga, Ms. Marvel or W+D. I am sure that if Marvel keep pushing in the right direction (YA and kids oriented books) while the DM may suffer comics in the long run will only benefits.

Outside the DM, Batman is a pretty big deal. No doubt a lot of DC's collected edition revenue come from Batman-related books - Killing Joke, Snyder/Capullo run, Hush, Year One, DKR, Earth One, Long Halloween, Arkham Asylum, Injustice, etc. Quick guess, Batman graphic novels probably do better than most non-children geared GNs aside from The Walking Dead and Star Wars.

That's actually my point, though. I expect a good portion of the audience ($-wise) still patronizing the direct market by buying print periodicals is made up of collectors and speculators. New readers are more likely buying trades (and don't care whether a book is 1st printing or 10th printing), $0.99 digital or subscribe to Marvel Unlimited or comiXology Unlimited. Print periodical pricing and availability (only sold in specialty comic stores) in the US acts as a deterrent for most folks that are not already "addicted" to the hobby.

Publishers chose high profit margins via the direct market over more readers and that aged up the audience for superhero comics. Yes, the newsstand system was corrupt and dying. The direct market was necessary. However, it shouldn't have become the be-all and end-all for as long as it did.

[CentralPower]

Why? Many of us were here first. Why do we have to "just walk away" and let you do what you want with the characters we've loved in many cases for decades? What makes your claim on them superior to ours?

Outside of a formalized club (probably more common for gamers than comic readers), seniority does not matter.

How would it be defined? I started reading comics over 30 years ago, but largely drifted away during the 90s, up to the end of the last decade. Does that "reset" my seniority? Does reading back-issues or compilations retroactively increase my seniority?

The hobby is not a secret club, nor should it be. I want the local comic store to make enough money to pay its rent and to keep the lights on. If that means that kids, including little girls, get in to the hobby, so be it.

I read "Iron Man" for several years (Gillen's run through "Secret Wars"). I am not going to complain about Bendis' run being pitched to younger readers. If anything, this gives me a chance to read Edmunson's run on "the Punisher" or Slott's "Amazing Spider-Man".

Anybody old enough to be on this forum is old enough to maybe try new things, or to follow a creative team rather than a character.

I think you're being charitable. I think most homes aren't filled with books (paperbacks or otherwise) because most people don't read books. Period. (To be fair, I'm a cynic.)

Yup.

Heck I have a friend who owns a comic book/used book store

Most comic shops have back-issues, and supplies for keeping them. (We more or less agree.)

The problem is that we are arguing with somebody who is parsing the definitions of "reader" and "collector" for the purposes of derailing a thread.

Where is this mass drop-off of readers? There has been a general decline, not a mass drop-off, that has interested all publishers, not Marvel alone. The fact is there i a tiny part of retailers that have an outdated business model and would like time to go back instead of keep up with the times. Period.

The retailer complaint (this thread's original topic) seems to be that they are seeing a drop that they are not comfortable with. If too many of their customers drop too many series (Marvel or otherwise) too quickly, they may not be able to change their business model.

Back in 2011, the local shop saw a net spike in DC sales following "Flashpoint". New readers temporarily replaced old readers. But, those new readers scaled their buying down (dropping stuff they were curious about and keeping what they really liked). And, some of the old readers left. Within a year or so, the store had a net decline in DC sales.

The same may be happening for some stores now, but with Marvel. It is hard to blame the owners for being upset by this.

That's actually my point, though. I expect a good portion of the audience ($-wise) still patronizing the direct market by buying print periodicals is made up of collectors and speculators. New readers are more likely buying trades (and don't care whether a book is 1st printing or 10th printing), $0.99 digital or subscribe to Marvel Unlimited or comiXology Unlimited. Print periodical pricing and availability (only sold in specialty comic stores) in the US acts as a deterrent for most folks that are not already "addicted" to the hobby.

I doubt that there are any speculators who regularly go to comic shops. Every so often, a non-fan friend will ask me why I do not "invest" or speculate. I then explain the basic economics and impossibility of that. (We are all familiar with this.) But, book stores are becoming the new point of entry. Comic shops do many things better. But, book stores are getting the advantage in terms of foot traffic.

I think you agree with me that part of the problem is that too many of these books are 'made for us'. The average big two reader is mid thirties and skews to male and that is crazy for a medium that naturally should be aimed at the YA market. I am never going to complain that writers like Hickman have a place in modern comics, but it doesn't make sense for the entire line to be pandering to a single market.

Not all of the industry needs to be "for us". But, the industry has decided that making comics "for us" makes more sense than making comics "for those other people". When Archie is moving away from kiddie books, is it really a question of neglecting kids or is it Archie making a business decision to go for teens rather than little kids?

Fraction's Hawkeye, Slott's Silver Surfer, Hickman's FF are better super hero stories than Brubaker's Winter Soldier or Hickman's Avengers. The stories are true, the characters are real. I like Hickman as a writer but when I find myself reading about the 7 smartest persons on the planet punching themselves about destroying a universe or let two being destroyed I can only feel a bit embarrassed.

How is Hickman's run embarassing? He is a high-concept writer, and his "Avengers" run was about a no win scenario. The characters are less important than what he was writing about, and what he was saying about it. (Entire threads on this forum have been devoted to that run.) Slott's "Silver Surger" or Spider-Man are also high-concept, but they are different subject matter.

(Slott and Hickman both have legitimate ideas beyond comics, but they use those ideas in comics. And, both are good enough writers that their ideas are worth reading.)

[skyvolt2000]

Not all of the industry needs to be "for us". But, the industry has decided that making comics "for us" makes more sense than making comics "for those other people". When Archie is moving away from kiddie books, is it really a question of neglecting kids or is it Archie making a business decision to go for teens rather than little kids?

Archie did not abandon kids. So lets stop spreading that lie.

Those digests are still sold in stores. Now it is true they lost Sonic & Mega Man by antics of their own doing but they never left kids.

Those new look books are still some what tweener & teen friendly. The downside is they ticked off the hardcore fans-who unlike around here left. Then toss in delays with many books and comic book stores still REFUSING to stock the books-it proved to be a bad move.

Comic Book guy would not stock the books-so any chance of getting those kids didn't happened. Same issues with Darkwing Duck, Ducktales, Peanuts and others. However in most cases those kiddie books had adult fans. Especially Regular Show & My Little Pony.

It was a quick sales boost that failed rather quickly as aside from Jughead & Archie-it's a battle to see other titles. Then when you had Reggie, Riverdale & Josie-NOBODY CARED. And I say that as someone who supported those books. Now they are trying again with New Crusaders and we can only HOPE it works out.


And who the heck are those OTHER PEOPLE? Is that code for POC, LGBT & women?

So all these white girls who fell in love with Ms Marvel at my local comic book store-should be denied that book and be forced to read Wonder Man?

The same may be happening for some stores now, but with Marvel. It is hard to blame the owners for being upset by this.

The main beef with DC was no one know what was canon or not, editors screwing over characters like Static & Teen Titans, editors disrespecting writers, editing fan favorites out of books and the introduction of that OTHER Wally West.

DC fans show WAY more maturity during that time.

No Stephanie or Cassandra Cain attacked Barbara Gordon fans like we saw X-Men go after and still go after Inhumans.

No Static, Blue Beetle, Firestorm, Batwoman, Omac and other fans whined and cried about why their books were gone and Batwing lasted WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY longer than it should.

Stephanie & Cassandra fans took DAN to task for his behavior and mistreatment of those two-on any other DC employee.

Black Wally West-do I even need to continue?

DC took their rage out on WHO was in charge not every single employee. Dan, Johns & Lee.

And when they bytched-they bought more to the table than SJW BS-they pointed out page numbers and what was wrong based on what they READ.


Now we come here-so if you choose to drop every Marvel book and lose money-how is that Marvel's fault?

Because the first thing I would want to know about those crybabies is what other business that sell comics are around you. Do they sell them lower price? Are they used? What other products do you offer that some other place like Wal-Mart might have?

Look at your customers-if they seem to have a HATE for POC lead books-that is not Marvel's issue. That is YOURS and it always will be.

Instead of CRYING-it's time to adapt. Or join the graveyard with other who chose not to like Blockbuster, Borders, Circuit City and others.

[rui no onna]

The retailer complaint (this thread's original topic) seems to be that they are seeing a drop that they are not comfortable with. If too many of their customers drop too many series (Marvel or otherwise) too quickly, they may not be able to change their business model.

I doubt that there are any speculators who regularly go to comic shops. Every so often, a non-fan friend will ask me why I do not "invest" or speculate. I then explain the basic economics and impossibility of that. (We are all familiar with this.) But, book stores are becoming the new point of entry. Comic shops do many things better. But, book stores are getting the advantage in terms of foot traffic.

One of the original complaints was the gating (meet or exceed x%) on variants before it got derailed.

Speculators do need to get the comics they flip on ebay from somewhere. Since quick turnaround is important, most buy from LCS instead of waiting for shipping from online sources. Heck, the reason I preorder is because there are speculators who clear out stock for hot books at my LCS (argh!). That said, yes, part of the problem is speculators don't tend to buy issues #2 onwards.

[Redjack]

The problem is that we are arguing with somebody who is parsing the definitions of "reader" and "collector" for the purposes of derailing a thread.

No, you are not. I don't parse. The words have real and distinct meanings and you don't get to fudge them in order to support a bankrupt assertion.

The retailer complaint (this thread's original topic) seems to be that they are seeing a drop that they are not comfortable with. If too many of their customers drop too many series (Marvel or otherwise) too quickly, they may not be able to change their business model.

1) No. That's not what the thread is about nor is it what "the retailer rage" is about.
2) None of that has anything to do with the actual sales figures in regards to what the PUBLISHER is pulling in, profit-wise.
3) if they can't make their shops adapt to the modern market and are unable to get around the marketing practices of the Big Two, they will die. That's commerce.

[Za Waldo]

Well, on Amazon you can find most super hero trade paperbacks at an average of 10-14$ depending on the title. At this level I don't think the page count counts (pun not intended), if I am interested in a book I won't buy another because the former it's 120 and the latter 200 pages, especially if the price is similar. It's just that most young adults are more interested in Manga than super hero comics. Probably because until a few years 99% of super hero comics catered to a single demographic: white 30-something bro-males. But with this demographic the problem of the cost of monthlies book is moot, they would never buy them, they buy online or in book stores. Imho, when the offer is there, this market responds. Young adults buy Ms Marvel, they buy Saga, The Wicked + The Divine, Bitch Planet, and they buy a lot of them. Outside the DM Bat Man or Spider Man are nothing compared to Saga, Ms. Marvel or W+D. I am sure that if Marvel keep pushing in the right direction (YA and kids oriented books) while the DM may suffer comics in the long run will only benefits.

This is true, the "bros" have always been the comic industry's target demo. Five years ago I'd come arocss tons of bros in there 30s...who were white, just broing out with some floppy rolled up in their back pocket.

They're probably more interested in manga because they've got better stories and better art than a good deal of what the western comic book industry has produced in the last ten years. In some weird ass backwards journey to reach these readers Marvel has seemingly gotten worse than it's been at any point since the start of the 2000s. Marvel for the last few years has felt like some old man that just discovered Tumblr was a thing and is trying to reach that Tumblr audience...but nobody told the old man nobody cares about Tumblr anymore, because it's not 2012 and nobody thinks the Hawkeye Initiative is clever anymore.