Retailer Fury At Marvel NYCC Panel

[rui no onna]

Also. The lower the printing of a book the less the overhead. Therefore a 10k books probably sell 90% more of the printing, while a 70k books could even sell 70-80% of the total print.

Not quite. Given the non-returnable nature of most comics via the direct market, whether it's 10K or 50K or 100K, those are all sold (to retailers). Publishers don't overprint by a lot which is actually why you see Marvel needing to do a lot of 2nd prints. Books are nearly instantly sold out upon release because the amount printed is close to the amount advance ordered by stores. As an aside, Marvel should probably increase their overprint for the initial Legacy issues so they wouldn't need to do costly multiple printings. Retailers still appear to be quite skittish and apart from those over ordering to qualify for the 3D variants, others seem to be ordering quite conservatively. With offset printing, higher print runs means lower cost per copy.

If you look at the drops from issues #1 to #2 to #3 to #4 that shows you the trend for sell through. I expect most retailers are quick to slash orders for books that don't sell (albeit probably not quickly enough for biweekly and weekly books since there's no time to adjust until 2-4 issues later).

Another thing, the fee paid to creators is the same whether it's selling 10K or 50K (although I think some additional royalties might kick in after a minimum amount of sales, I believe 40K for DC, dunno about Marvel). Based on page rate surveys, DC and Marvel spend on average around $500/page in creative costs (writer, penciller, inker, colorist, letterer). For a 22-page book, that's ~$11K plus another $500-1000 for the cover. Creative costs are the biggest "overhead" and the more copies are sold, then the more that cost is spread out per copy (although in terms of accounting, those are actually direct costs and not overhead).

From Kieron Gillen:

Anything selling stably over 10k in single issues is a cause for celebration and joy. The creators are almost certainly extremely happy.

If you’re selling over (ooh) 12k, you’re probably making more than either of the big two would pay you, unless you’re one of the very biggest names.

If you’re selling anything near 20k, you probably have to buy drinks for your friends.

And in a real way, if Phonogram settled around 6k back in 2006, I suspect Jamie and I would have settled into doing it for another 40 or 50 issues.

All the three sentences I bolded in a block were about making money from the single issues. They do not include any other revenue source, such as trades. If the single issues break even and you make your money in trades, that’s also fine. With a few exceptions, big two comics primarily make their money in single issues. That is one reason why their single issue sales matter so much more.

And an earlier interview:

CA: Why no third series? Is "Singles Club" the last "Phonogram" story?
KG: It was Advanced Capitalism in the early 21st Century with the sales figures.

CA: Don't you think you'll be making that up with the trade? Lots of good comics aren't selling well, why do you think your lack of financial success precludes a third volume down the road? Why not explore other publishers or imprints like Vertigo or Marvel Icon?
KG: There's a difference between making only a little money and starving. We're very much in the latter. Jamie's lucky to get a couple of hundred dollars from an issue. While he didn't tell me about this until after it was all done, there were three occasions when Jamie was seriously considering throwing in the towel. The problem is that Image's deal is a back-end one. Will we make some money off the trade? Maybe. And that's a big maybe. But that means Jamie not earning any money for the six months it would take to draw it, which is the main reason why we took over a year to do 7 issues. As in, every time Jamie ran out of money, he had to stop and do something else. A couple of hundred dollars doesn't cover rent or pay for his fashionable haircuts. And doing this bitty work f--ks up the production anyway, because you can't concentrate or plan. You just spend your entire life in low-level money panic.

Frankly, Jamie is just shy of thirty and one of the most talented illustrators of his generation. Even I'm not a big a bastard enough to want him to spend another year in "Phonogram"'s brand of hell. He deserves a paycheck.

Other options? Vertigo would never publish "Phonogram." The stuff we do with real bands is far too grey-area for Warner [Bros]. I'm not Bendis or Brubaker, so Icon would never fly. Most companies you suspect would be interested aren't, from what I understand - though I haven't actually pursued it with any seriousness.

Best plan I have is just writing series 3 and then writing into my will that assuming I die young and Jamie's still around, lob him whatever's in my bank account to draw it. Which is assuming he'd even be willing to do it then. It's not that we're bitter about it -- well, not just because we're bitter about it -- but that it's been emotionally exhausting. We've been doing "Phonogram" for over 4 years, not including the years before the first series came out. Imagine if we could have just done the comic and not had to deal with any of the shit we've had to. We'd have been up to issue 44 now. Instead, we have 13 issues.

I feel frustrated. Enormously lucky, sure, but frustrated. We've done this wonderful thing we're crazy-proud about. But if the whole economic system was just a couple of degrees to the left, everything would have been different. I mean, just to give you an idea about narrow the margins are between what we are and what we could be, if we were selling 6K instead of 4K, we could have done those 44 issues. The difference between breaking even and actually being able to do it in comics is insane. It's like being kept under ice, clawing. I feel like a bonsai plant.

The Image model is an interesting one but with Marvel and DC, one is at least guaranteed a paycheck. Image books selling at ~5K or less, I expect the print single issues aren't providing enough income to live on and I wouldn't be surprised if some run at a loss as singles hoping to make money via collected editions and digital.
http://www.comicsbeat.com/meanwhile-...talking-about/

The above gives us an idea as to the sales level where books start to become profitable. Marvel's actually in a better position than DC and can more easily afford taking chances on new titles that would have better sales via other markets. The problem was Marvel expected the direct market to pay entirely for those books (and provide profit, too) when they would've been better served focusing marketing efforts on channels outside the DM. After the controversial retailer meeting earlier this year (I think back in March?), they've started to seriously shift their focus outside the DM which was necessary (and probably something that should've been done decades earlier).

[JKtheMac]

So, someone made a thread asking What Was Wrong With Marvel, or something like that, and someone said they should watch D&C to find out. I actually replied not to bother because all they would see is what D&C thought was wrong. In your case, maybe go ahead and watch his and others? I'm not recommending it because most of the stuff they go on about is like highschool drama and they are not all that good at criticising, but these guys are actually reading most of the books they are picking on.

I read ALL of the books in the NOW! initiative, every one of them. From AvX to Secret Wars. It took me a loooog while and a lot of dedication. Much planning, too much money, much borrowing and a lot of Marvel Unlimited reading. This was the era that this legacy idea and the supposed writing of books for virtue signalling is supposed to have begun. The overriding impression I got was that Marvel had a very clear vision for what they wanted to do. They were retuning to their old values and allowing writers and artists to go with their passions.

Not once did I feel they were pushing an agenda on their readers other than allowing and empowering their creative talent to tell the best stories they could. Nothing that I have read in the books since, heard in the copious listening to and reading interviews, or even read in the biased press has convinced me anything changed as we moved towards the current time.

I am betting if I had made a podcast about my reading of these titles it would have been followed by very few people. It would have been honest, informed and unbiased, but it wouldn't have been controversial, it wouldn't have pandered to other people's tastes and it wouldn't have made its own headlines.

[Serddar]

This comes from someone who had multiple short trips into the Marvel comics, I read DC mostly, and I'll probably once more start with Marvel now when Legacy is kicking off, so just have in mind this is how someone from the side sees all of this.

Firstly, to me it looks as if all of these major characters became someone else over night, without enough time spent on telling the story of this change. Secondly they all changed in a short period of time. So looking from the sidelines it looks like they did not change because of some sorts of a plan, or because there was story in it, but because "hey let's have diversity". Why not create new characters? Or create sidekicks? Instead you just threw some people in and went like "oh look, new Hulk, new Thor" etc. Why not push some minor characters into greater roles over time, leading them naturally to more important part of the universe.

Write good stories that involve diverse characters, do not change existing ones for soul purpose of diversity. Comments like "oh there are not enough homosexual people in this one" are just insane to me, because someone had an idea for all these characters, made a story and now you are saying that story is bad because there are no homosexuals, isn't that wrong as well?

[Redjack]

This comes from someone who had multiple short trips into the Marvel comics, I read DC mostly, and I'll probably once more start with Marvel now when Legacy is kicking off, so just have in mind this is how someone from the side sees all of this.

Firstly, to me it looks as if all of these major characters became someone else over night, without enough time spent on telling the story of this change. Secondly they all changed in a short period of time. So looking from the sidelines it looks like they did not change because of some sorts of a plan, or because there was story in it, but because "hey let's have diversity". Why not create new characters? Or create sidekicks? Instead you just threw some people in and went like "oh look, new Hulk, new Thor" etc. Why not push some minor characters into greater roles over time, leading them naturally to more important part of the universe.

Write good stories that involve diverse characters, do not change existing ones for soul purpose of diversity. Comments like "oh there are not enough homosexual people in this one" are just insane to me, because someone had an idea for all these characters, made a story and now you are saying that story is bad because there are no homosexuals, isn't that wrong as well?

Moon Girl
Ms. Marvel
Mosaic
America Chavez
Squirrel Girl
Mockingbird
Unstoppable Wsp
Slapstick
Silk
Spider-Gwen
Patriot
Nova
Ghost Rider
x-23 (Wolverine now)
The Nu-Humans (new inhumans in their own book)
Nighthawk

When you don't know what you're talking about, you shouldn't opine.

[Redjack]

I read ALL of the books in the NOW! initiative, every one of them. From AvX to Secret Wars. It took me a loooog while and a lot of dedication. Much planning, too much money, much borrowing and a lot of Marvel Unlimited reading. This was the era that this legacy idea and the supposed writing of books for virtue signalling is supposed to have begun. The overriding impression I got was that Marvel had a very clear vision for what they wanted to do. They were retuning to their old values and allowing writers and artists to go with their passions.

Axel Alonso: "What would you like to do? Are there any existing characters you've been dying to play with? Or you can make up something new. It's your call."

Me: #makenewthings

Not once did I feel they were pushing an agenda on their readers other than allowing and empowering their creative talent to tell the best stories they could. Nothing that I have read in the books since, heard in the copious listening to and reading interviews, or even read in the biased press has convinced me anything changed as we moved towards the current time.

Because nothing has.

[Conn Seanery]

Write good stories that involve diverse characters, do not change existing ones for soul purpose of diversity. Comments like "oh there are not enough homosexual people in this one" are just insane to me, because someone had an idea for all these characters, made a story and now you are saying that story is bad because there are no homosexuals, isn't that wrong as well?

Whatever point you're trying to make about altering/changing existing characters is getting lost in the faulty logic you're using at the end. One can observe that there's a lack of diverse characters while still having enjoyed many of the comics they've read over the years.

[Serddar]

Moon Girl
Ms. Marvel
Mosaic
America Chavez
Squirrel Girl
Mockingbird
Unstoppable Wsp
Slapstick
Silk
Spider-Gwen
Patriot
Nova
Ghost Rider
x-23 (Wolverine now)
The Nu-Humans (new inhumans in their own book)
Nighthawk

When you don't know what you're talking about, you shouldn't opine.

Ha?

Batman
Superman
Batwoman
Nightwing
Deathstroke
Hal Jordan
Tim Drake
Swamp Thing
The Flash
Suicide Squad
Justice League
General Zod
Red Hood
Wonder Woman


See I can list titles and names as well, maybe bring up your point next time? Or at least do not tell me I cannot express my opinion on how this looks from sidelines? Something I strongly wanted to point out just to be clear with people...

[Serddar]

Whatever point you're trying to make about altering/changing existing characters is getting lost in the faulty logic you're using at the end. One can observe that there's a lack of diverse characters while still having enjoyed many of the comics they've read over the years.

I'm talking about people who can't enjoy it or chose to drag it down because it lacks diversity. Your point is one I agree with and was never against, you misunderstood.

[ed2962]

This comes from someone who had multiple short trips into the Marvel comics, I read DC mostly, and I'll probably once more start with Marvel now when Legacy is kicking off, so just have in mind this is how someone from the side sees all of this.

Firstly, to me it looks as if all of these major characters became someone else over night, without enough time spent on telling the story of this change. Secondly they all changed in a short period of time. So looking from the sidelines it looks like they did not change because of some sorts of a plan, or because there was story in it, but because "hey let's have diversity". Why not create new characters? Or create sidekicks? Instead you just threw some people in and went like "oh look, new Hulk, new Thor" etc. Why not push some minor characters into greater roles over time, leading them naturally to more important part of the universe.

Write good stories that involve diverse characters, do not change existing ones for soul purpose of diversity. Comments like "oh there are not enough homosexual people in this one" are just insane to me, because someone had an idea for all these characters, made a story and now you are saying that story is bad because there are no homosexuals, isn't that wrong as well?

It's a popular meme now, but those "changes" didn't happen over night. And no one is suggesting that the old stories are no longer good because there wasn't enough minority characters in them.

[Serddar]

It's a popular meme now, but those "changes" didn't happen over night. And no one is suggesting that the old stories are no longer good because there wasn't enough minority characters in them.

Alright, thanks for that. So those changes were long term plans and are actually made through the story? Not just one character is gone - bring in the next.

[SignorMiracolo]

Alright, thanks for that. So those changes were long term plans and are actually made through the story? Not just one character is gone - bring in the next.

Yes, except for Hulk the other character weren't replaced overnight as someone would like to think of would like others to think. Wolverine lost his healing factor, died after a year, a Wolverines weekly series followed, featuring many potential replacements (Laura, Daken and other from Weapon X), then there was SW during while the OML miniseries was published, and only after that a book with Laura appeared.

Jane Thor was foreshadowed at the start of Aaron run, years before her appearance. A lot of stories happened, then an event where Thor lost the hammer, than the new book.

Captain America got aged in a long story whose seeds were planted years before Sam Cap, than choose Sam as replacement.

The new IM was hinted from the start of the run and more than a year passed before the replacement.

And these replacements I have listed happened months and even years one from another.

[Za Waldo]

Jane Foster Thor does not ship better than the Thor comic before she became Thor. It did, for a time, that time ended sometime a year ago. This is like a talking point that made sense two to three years ago, but needs to be updated now. Unworthy Thor was also shipping more than Mighty Thor while it was going; sometime by like five thousand, sometimes over ten thousand.

[Serddar]

Yes, except for Hulk the other character weren't replaced overnight as someone would like to think of would like others to think. Wolverine lost his healing factor, died after a year, a Wolverines weekly series followed, featuring many potential replacements (Laura, Daken and other from Weapon X), then there was SW during while the OML miniseries was published, and only after that a book with Laura appeared.

Jane Thor was foreshadowed at the start of Aaron run, years before her appearance. A lot of stories happened, then an event where Thor lost the hammer, than the new book.

Captain America got aged in a long story whose seeds were planted years before Sam Cap, than choose Sam as replacement.

The new IM was hinted from the start of the run and more than a year passed before the replacement.

And these replacements I have listed happened months and even years one from another.

That makes sense and changes things drastically, thanks for the constructive answer mate!

[JKtheMac]

Jane Foster Thor does not ship better than the Thor comic before she became Thor. It did, for a time, that time ended sometime a year ago. This is like a talking point that made sense two to three years ago, but needs to be updated now. Unworthy Thor was also shipping more than Mighty Thor while it was going; sometime by like five thousand, sometimes over ten thousand.

Want point are you trying to make? The thread has already pulled this issue to pieces and put it back together. In reality the same writer is telling an ongoing story so why compare anyway?

[skyvolt2000]

Jane Foster Thor does not ship better than the Thor comic before she became Thor. It did, for a time, that time ended sometime a year ago. This is like a talking point that made sense two to three years ago, but needs to be updated now. Unworthy Thor was also shipping more than Mighty Thor while it was going; sometime by like five thousand, sometimes over ten thousand.

SOOOOOOOOOOO one mini is suppose to prove Thor is better than Jane's longer runs?

Really?

Now if he had an ongoing along with Jane-you would have a point. HOWEVER much like with Miles & Peter-it does not matter who sales the most as long s BOTH sale.