Retailer Fury At Marvel NYCC Panel

[JKtheMac]

You're comparing a figure who was widely despised by the entire population and committed the Holocaust to modern day comics? Everyone reading hated Hitler. The difference between the X-Men and Captain America back then as opposed to what they're doing now is they didn't draw a line in the sand with the own READERSHIP and say "Get on or get off". You will not convince readers they should love Riri Williams because it's progressive or upholding a new social standard.

You might want to read some history books. Not everyone hated Hitler when Cap was punching him in the face. Indeed Kirby used to tell stories about New York Nazi sympathisers lurking around the Marvel office because they were upset with Marvel pushing what they saw as anti-Nazi propaganda in a time when the US were still debating whether to join the war, and Nazi sympathies were being openly expressed in the streets.

At socialite parties it wouldn't be unusual to see a Nazi pin on someone's lapel, and sometimes a Nazi uniform, worn by the latest officer sent to lobby on behalf of Hitler. As attested in diaries of the time.

There is a reason people in the UK called the air war over southern England, The Battle of Britain. Because while Kirby was drawing Cap, Britain had very few allies left and were desperate to get the US to join the war before they themselves were invaded. Luckily the air defenders were victorious in that Hitler decided to stop sending bombers in large numbers, (the attrition rate was too high, but it was high on both sides and Hitler probably would have won if they had persevered for a few more months) and England still had enough gold reserves to entice US manufacturing to lobby for war.

History would have been much kinder to Hitler if any of this had failed, and we probably would have no idea about the atrocities committed in his name.

Captain America comics would probably have become very rare indeed.

[Yagamifire]

Back in the day socialists LOVED Hitler before all the dirty laundry aired. Then they started pretending he wasn't a socialist.

[Jokerz79]

Hitler wasn't that much of a hated figure thru most of the 30's in America. There was even the German American Bund Society which lasted till the War and many members were put in American Internment Camps after Pearl Harbor. Nazism was even considered in vogue because of how he turned Germany around and even some Americans considered celebrities endorse him like Charles Lindbergh. It wasn't until the 36 Berlin Olympics that some anti-Nazi sentiment started to come to the surface also stories of the Nazis atrocities started coming out too. The Goldbergs and not the current ABC series but the 1920's radio show that eventually transitioned to TV that was created, written, and starred Gertrude Berg who played Molly Goldberg about her Jewish family in the Bronx did an episode about Kristallnacht now the Goldbergs is credited as creating the sitcom and it was a highly rated program at one point Gertrude Berg was pulled as the most popular woman in American only behind Eleanor Roosevelt. So people started noticing the evil of Hitler and the Nazis by the time Captain America was printed I mean Hitler was chosen as the villain for the first issue according to Kirby and Simon due to him starting the war in Europe which made many Americans angry and led to many Americans wanting to stay out of the war because of past memories of the last war. & thus our large isolation movement in America until Pearl Harbor. Truth is Hitler was hated in many circles by the time Captain America was introduced but he wasn't the incarnation of evil he is to us.

[Redjack]

Add it all together and it hurts the Direct Market Stores. Forcing to buy more books due to variants, not allowing returns, replacing large amounts of proven successful characters who sell well, storylines that alienate fans, and yes it all effect the stores. Also as a member of my comic community I have friends who own stores and also I like going to comic book stores so yes I care what effects them because if they go out of business it also effects me. As for creators getting heat hey in retail customers complain no matter if they can't find the item they want at the store or the sale price is over if it's a restaurant they'll complain about the food. The moment you get into a career which survives on customers and fans expect feedback and it isn't always good.

The direct market needs to go. it was always only a short-term solution with limited positive effect for the shops and the customers. It was always only a means for the big two to exert more control over the retailers. now it's just a cancer. It needs to die.

As someone said in another post, none of this stuff is new, none of it is much different from what happened to the booksellers a while back and, while it sucks to have a specific beloved LCS go under (I would hate to see mine go) most of them will not be here in ten years because most of them re not going to adapt fast enough to changing facts of their business.

they will either adapt or they will die and that's it.

And i don't belleve for one second that any of this "fan" outrage is on behalf of retailers from beloved, long-term customers. Mainly because most of the outraged opposition hasn't studied enough of what they claim they're outraged about to be outraged. They do not know what they're talking about, IOW.

[The Negative Zone]

I love my LCS too, but the fact is paying for Marvel subscriptions is cheaper and I can get trades cheaper at Amazon and Books A Million. They're sadly not going to last.

[DanMad1977]

I love my LCS too, but the fact is paying for Marvel subscriptions is cheaper and I can get trades cheaper at Amazon and Books A Million. They're sadly not going to last.

Well, it seems you dont love your store so much, that you want it to survive.

I hope a least a few will survive. Nothing is better than visiting a comic shop and see the things in rl.

[The Negative Zone]

Well, it seems you dont love your store so much, that you want it to survive.

Would you honestly spend more of your money on comic books to save a store? If you would, I think you'd be in the minority. Even if I fully supported my local store, that won't stop other customers from saving their money....

[DanMad1977]

In fact i do. I am a shop owner myself (not comics), so i know a bit about that stuff. I support my dealer and do not buy at amazon (that never pay even a euro taxes in my country) and is trying to destroy everything else. You should not buy there (but thats another discussion for another time).

I am sure many people prefer buying cheap comics elsewhere, and other stuff too, yes. But that isnt an argument.

[Jokerz79]

The direct market needs to go. it was always only a short-term solution with limited positive effect for the shops and the customers. It was always only a means for the big two to exert more control over the retailers. now it's just a cancer. It needs to die.

As someone said in another post, none of this stuff is new, none of it is much different from what happened to the booksellers a while back and, while it sucks to have a specific beloved LCS go under (I would hate to see mine go) most of them will not be here in ten years because most of them re not going to adapt fast enough to changing facts of their business.

they will either adapt or they will die and that's it.

And i don't belleve for one second that any of this "fan" outrage is on behalf of retailers from beloved, long-term customers. Mainly because most of the outraged opposition hasn't studied enough of what they claim they're outraged about to be outraged. They do not know what they're talking about, IOW.

I believe retailers know their customers and what they want and what sells. Also if they need because they can't adapt fine can some hack creator go too who can sell a series to save their souls?

[Redjack]

I believe retailers know their customers and what they want and what sells. Also if they need because they can't adapt fine can some hack creator go too who can sell a series to save their souls?

i don't know what any of that means. please clarify.

[Jokerz79]

i don't know what any of that means. please clarify.

What is so difficult?

Ok Retailers actually have day to day contact with the consumers and thus know what they want unlike the creators and companies.

Two if the Direct Market should go because it's an out dated cancer. Than why not get rid of creators who regularly create books that are constantly under the cancellation line? Nothing drives away customers away faster than a bad product so that too is a cancer on the industry.

See a lot of people like to blame the Direct Market or the Customers me I like to look at the people who create crap that doesn't sell. Call me crazy but the buck should stop at the top.

[Redjack]

What is so difficult?

Ok Retailers actually have day to day contact with the consumers and thus know what they want unlike the creators and companies.

Two if the Direct Market should go because it's an out dated cancer. Than why not get rid of creators who regularly create books that are constantly under the cancellation line? Nothing drives away customers away faster than a bad product so that too is a cancer on the industry.

See a lot of people like to blame the Direct Market or the Customers me I like to look at the people who create crap that doesn't sell. Call me crazy but the buck should stop at the top.

The creators are not the "top." Not even close. That would be Senior Editorial and Corporate Execs. Those are the people who green light projects and decide which books you get to see. They don't tell the creators what to create but they do OK those creations for distribution to the public. THEY are called gatekeepers for a reason.

Going at the creators might be fun for some people but its just another indication of shallow thinking on the part of the detractors. I've tried to explain how the creative process works. If you're unhappy with company output, attacking or deriding individual creators is not going to help you.

1) You're not the only person or people who are being reached by the work. Even a failed book has thousands of readers who disagree with your negative opinion. A book that doesn't sell enough for the Big Two to maintain might still be doing numbers that would make it a hit in Indie World or, if not a hit, at least sustainable.

2) Creators don't work for you. They work for themselves and for the company. So, again, attacking them directly might be fun for some, but it's totally useless if you're trying to achieve an actual goal beyond harassment.

[Fused]

The audience is not part of the creative process. Not. Not even the tiniest bit. Not. Not requested. not invited. Not, in the purest sense, considered at all.

Ang Lee took audience feedback into making Hulk's pants purple. I had the pleasure of joining Jon Favreau's Facebook group during the production of the first Iron Man where he explicitly engaged fans during the creative process. Your assertion isn't remotely accurate on those factual events alone. As a creator, if you're lucky enough to have cultivated an audience, you may not bow to every whim, but you at least take them into consideration when moving forward.

[Redjack]

Ang Lee took audience feedback into making Hulk's pants purple. I had the pleasure of joining Jon Favreau's Facebook group during the production of the first Iron Man where he explicitly engaged fans during the creative process. Your assertion isn't remotely accurate on those factual events alone. As a creator, if you're lucky enough to have cultivated an audience, you may not bow to every whim, but you at least take them into consideration when moving forward.

Yeah. No. Sorry.

You're confusing focus groups with something creative. Not the case. Focus groups are to see how something is landing with a curated segment of a potential audience. It's for the MARKETING aspect of the piece. Endings are sometimes changed if it's found that the audience mostly doesn't want Leo to drown in TITANIC or new scenes are added (or a Blade Runner voice over) if audiences are thought to be confused by the final piece. That isn't being part of the creative process.

These things happen AFTER the work is or is nearly done (no matter what you were told on Facebook). At no time is the audience polled to see what a character should do or say or how the story should go or how the thing should look or sound or anything.

Not part of the process. Never will be part of the process. The end.

[Za Waldo]

Which has nothing to do with X-men being cancelled for low sales and subsequently relaunched and/or their profitability at the time.

I didn't say it did, I'm also not the one that tried to make the point by bring up the X-Men in the first place.