Retailer Fury At Marvel NYCC Panel

[rui no onna]

As JK said, comics increase in value due to their rarity so, logically, if that value did anything for the comic book publisher, they should be made less durable over the years, rather than the slightly-better-than-newsprint fare we have today. But publishers don't care about the collector market because they make no money from that market. From time to time they will restart at number 1 to get a sales spike that is from the speculators who ONLY buy with a mind for later resale and assume every #1 will increase in value over time.

Marvel actually makes quite a bit of money from collectors by way of 1:2000, meet or exceed, retailer exclusive, etc variants. Marvel sells the comics at regular wholesale but they get thousands (sometimes up to 100-200K per issue) worth of extra orders thanks to the collector market. Caveat is the way Marvel implements their variant program poses greater risk for retailers. For every retailer that makes money from incentive variants, there's probably 10 or more that post a loss or barely break even on product cost.

[JackDaw]

Depends.

I have a used book store that happens to have many locations especially near comic book stores.

What I have seen happen is new books come out Wednesday and by Saturday-that used book store has them at 50% and lower. If they are Marvel and now Dc with digital codes-those codes tend to be used.

DVD/Blue Ray-if it has a code-it's used and that copy is sold to used book store and Movie trading post.

Paperbacks-for most books it takes a long time for that used copy to show up.

In fact the used book store ENCOURAGES you to buy it used and then sell it back to them.

Magazines-I have a subscription to GQ for two years. It's cheaper for me to do that versus buying the newstand. 4 of those issues each my two year subscription.

I do keep most of my books and comics-especially if it's a comic not in trade and some of it is used for educational purposes.

Showing all 257 issues of the original Milestone run seems to have a bigger effect on kids versus copies of the covers.

I wish I had a store like that near me. It reminded me just how much our buying habits are driven by types of opportunity available. I tried a far wider range of comics when I worked at a place where a market trader sold battered second hand comics dirt cheap.

But as you've guessed my now, I'm really sceptical about idea in today's market there's really a big proportion of causal buyers of brand new floppies as opposed to reader/ collectors.

The very few floppies I buy myself now are 1/ second hand rather than current 2/ material I can't get in any other format and 3/ stuff I'm really, really keen to read and 4/ stuff I'll keep for a fair while.

Redjack has convinced me I'm a collector (although condition doesn't bother me...as long as all the pages are there). Redjack himself is a collector. You're a collector (by the definition of wanting to keep comics..other definitions are possible). I suspect JKtheMac is as well...I suspect most of us on the site are.

Of course...we're hardly a typical cross-section of readers. But...you know what..I bet we're closer to average buyer of floppies than the fabled guy who wonders in off the street, buys a brand new floppy, reads it on train going home, and disposes of it shortly afterwards.

Let's call this mythical buyer " Floppy Casual Dude". There may be a few "Casual Dudes"...they probably outnumber unicorns...but the wise betting man would be putting down a wager at evens that they are outnumbered by guys who retain comics for longish periods.

[millernumber1]

Marvel actually makes quite a bit of money from collectors by way of 1:2000, meet or exceed, retailer exclusive, etc variants. Marvel sells the comics at regular wholesale but they get thousands (sometimes up to 100-200K per issue) worth of extra orders thanks to the collector market. Caveat is the way Marvel implements their variant program poses greater risk for retailers. For every retailer that makes money from incentive variants, there's probably 10 or more that post a loss or barely break even on product cost.

Yeah. At my LCS's Halloween event today, they had dollar bins of a bunch of stuff - and there was some pretty high numbers of newer comics that made me kinda sad, probably because of variants.

[JKtheMac]

Really? I haven't interpreted anybody's posts that way.

Let's have a look at a range of paper products..paper is a wonderful and wide ranging material. Some stuff made from it is clearly made for one use, then dispose. Obviously examples include toilet paper, napkins, and paper plates.

Other paper products clearly give buyer/ user the option of using the product many times, and retain it for years IF purchaser so wishes...there is nothing in design and durability of many paper products that forces user to quickly dispose of it.

And comics and paperback books clearly fall into this second category...the standard of construction (while usually falling short of superb) is more than high enough to give people the opportunity of using product for several years IF buyer so wishes. Surely you're not pretending that's not true!

Going on from that...why are you so resistant to notion that many (indeed probably most) keen buyers of brand new floppies and brand new paper backs don't throw them away soon after purchase?? (I know Redjack believes that is the case because when he goes round to somebody's house there are not thousands of paperbacks and comics lying around. But here's a couple of clues as to why that's a logically weak argument: most people don't buy brand new floppies and paperbacks to start with, and plenty that do pass them onto other people after reading.)

Rather than telling me again that paper articles are disposable...I know that..think about answering the question you keep dodging: what do you think a "typical" buyer of brand new floppies (and paperbacks) does with them after reading them??

There is a difference between design and use. A static door handle is designed for pulling but is sometimes put on the wrong side of the door. A fork is designed to spear food but is sometimes used to spoon food into the mouth. A screw is for a solid hold in a malleable surface but is sometimes hammered into masonary. A glass is for demonstrating the clarity of a liquid, but can be used for any liquid. A flute glass is for concentration of aroma but can be used to catch a spider. The point isn't how some people use a thing, or even how that thing is sometimes produced or marketed. The point is what a product was designed to be. Form follows function. Perverting that function has nothing to do with the form.

[JKtheMac]

Marvel actually makes quite a bit of money from collectors by way of 1:2000, meet or exceed, retailer exclusive, etc variants. Marvel sells the comics at regular wholesale but they get thousands (sometimes up to 100-200K per issue) worth of extra orders thanks to the collector market. Caveat is the way Marvel implements their variant program poses greater risk for retailers. For every retailer that makes money from incentive variants, there's probably 10 or more that post a loss or barely break even on product cost.

And De Beers make it difficult to cut diamonds. Their practices are illegal in almost every country in the world. That doesn't stop them operating where the market allows them to.

If everyone was like me and never purchased a diamond then they would fail, same with variants.

[JKtheMac]

Yeah. At my LCS's Halloween event today, they had dollar bins of a bunch of stuff - and there was some pretty high numbers of newer comics that made me kinda sad, probably because of variants.

If it was to do with variants that was the shop's choice. Economic behaviour isn't sad, it's just what happens. How people choose to act. Marvel are getting what they can from the deal. Seriously everyone just stop buying variant covers, they are literally not worth the paper. Sadly my saying that has zero influence on the market, on retailers or on Marvel. So good luck to the collectors the retailers and Marvel.

[WebLurker]

If it was to do with variants that was the shop's choice. Economic behaviour isn't sad, it's just what happens. How people choose to act. Marvel are getting what they can from the deal. Seriously everyone just stop buying variant covers, they are literally not worth the paper. Sadly my saying that has zero influence on the market, on retailers or on Marvel. So good luck to the collectors the retailers and Marvel.

I bought a variant cover once. However, in that case it was the only copy of the issue I bought and the reason I did was because the store had several different variants in stock, so I just picked the cover I liked best.

[JackDaw]

There is a difference between design and use. A static door handle is designed for pulling but is sometimes put on the wrong side of the door. A fork is designed to spear food but is sometimes used to spoon food into the mouth. A screw is for a solid hold in a malleable surface but is sometimes hammered into masonary. A glass is for demonstrating the clarity of a liquid, but can be used for any liquid. A flute glass is for concentration of aroma but can be used to catch a spider. The point isn't how some people use a thing, or even how that thing is sometimes produced or marketed. The point is what a product was designed to be. Form follows function. Perverting that function has nothing to do with the form.

Lol. Another complete tangent. (Although if you sit and think about it..you might admit to yourself..that there has been a steady drift in things like paper quality to make form more suitable for collection.)

But here’s the question I’ve asked you three times now, and you decline to answer: “Do you honestly believe that a large proportion of the buyers of brand new floppies, give them a read or two, then bin them?”

It’s really not important. If you answer “yes”...then we’ve got different subjective opinions. But..the more times you duck the question...the more I suspect that we share the same subjective view, on that one aspect.

[Punjabi_Hitman]

If Marvel or DC intended to sell collector's items instead of consumable items, why are the comics not sold to comic stores already bagged and boarded? Why are the covers of the comics not hardcover? Why is the ink they use so susceptible to acidity? Why are stories discontinued if there aren't enough sales? Why is there no buyback program replenish/refurbish program offered by them? Why is there not an evergreen option to pay them whatever to print you a copy of Action comics #1 50 years later or Thor #700 in 2027?

Have you tried the subscription service straight from Marvel? They used to deliver the book in a clear plastic bag that was way too big for the comic and most of the time the comic would be folded in half when the mailman pushed it through my mail slot. Nice collector's market Marvel got going there.

And as for digital being used as an example of a collector's market, you do realize that Marvel/DC/Comixology are only giving you a license to read their books and have the option of revoking that license at anytime and you losing all access to your books right? All Marvel and DC books have DRM to prevent you from archiving them.

Which means these stories are not for collecting. They are for consumption that is all.

[JackDaw]

If Marvel or DC intended to sell collector's items instead of consumable items, why are the comics not sold to comic stores already bagged and boarded? Why are the covers of the comics not hardcover? Why is the ink they use so susceptible to acidity? Why are stories discontinued if there aren't enough sales? Why is there no buyback program replenish/refurbish program offered by them? Why is there not an evergreen option to pay them whatever to print you a copy of Action comics #1 50 years later or Thor #700 in 2027?

Have you tried the subscription service straight from Marvel? They used to deliver the book in a clear plastic bag that was way too big for the comic and most of the time the comic would be folded in half when the mailman pushed it through my mail slot. Nice collector's market Marvel got going there.

And as for digital being used as an example of a collector's market, you do realize that Marvel/DC/Comixology are only giving you a license to read their books and have the option of revoking that license at anytime and you losing all access to your books right? All Marvel and DC books have DRM to prevent you from archiving them.

Which means these stories are not for collecting. They are for consumption that is all.

But original design intention/ manufacturing standards of comics do not force any buyer into using them in a predetermined way. That original design does not force quick disposal...I have comics in fine condition 50 years old. Not bagged, not boarded, and read a few times.

Come on..that statement is factual. If I buy a brand new Marvel floppy..then I can do what I want with it for a wide range of activities. I can read it and bin it. I can wrap my fish and chips in it. I can read it and store it. I can read it and give it to friends and family. Again purely factual.

So if we have a hundred buyers...some may read it and throw it away soon after, soon may read it and store it, etc. Again factual..if you really believe that ALL buyers quickly dispose of brand new floppies soon after reading...then I'm very, very puzzled how anybody could believe that.

So we come to the question I've asked repeatedly...and some posters repeatedly neglect to answer:-

"Do you really believe a typical buyer of a brand new floppy gives it a quick read, then bins it?"

Simple question...just needs a yes or no answer. It's really not complex. If you don't answer...you can probably see why I suspect it's because that simple answer undermines the contention that todays floppies are treated (by typical buyer) as quick disposal items.

[JKtheMac]

Lol. Another complete tangent. (Although if you sit and think about it..you might admit to yourself..that there has been a steady drift in things like paper quality to make form more suitable for collection.)

But here’s the question I’ve asked you three times now, and you decline to answer: “Do you honestly believe that a large proportion of the buyers of brand new floppies, give them a read or two, then bin them?”

It’s really not important. If you answer “yes”...then we’ve got different subjective opinions. But..the more times you duck the question...the more I suspect that we share the same subjective view, on that one aspect.

You seem to be mistaking my points to be defending those of others. I never said comics were not collected, or that most people throw them away. My point has nothing to do with that. My point is that Marvel are not making a product for the collector market, BUT they do make concessions to that market. The vast majority of their actions as a company have much more in common with the old pulp publishers. Invest in a wide range of product and print it as cheaply as the market will bear, minimising costs and losses on books that don't sell while maximising profits on those that do.

It is you that keeps bringing it back to what people actually do with their books. Marvel don't make money on any of that. Only by making a few concessions to that market and creating artificial rarity with high profile variants. They don't care if you keep them, just as Random House don't care about their secondary market despite lending or reselling supposedly being against the agreement printed in the book.

[JackDaw]

You seem to be mistaking my points to be defending those of others. I never said comics were not collected, or that most people throw them away. My point has nothing to do with that. My point is that Marvel are not making a product for the collector market, BUT they do make concessions to that market. The vast majority of their actions as a company have much more in common with the old pulp publishers. Invest in a wide range of product and print it as cheaply as the market will bear, minimising costs and losses on books that don't sell while maximising profits on those that do.

It is you that keeps bringing it back to what people actually do with their books. Marvel don't make money on any of that. Only by making a few concessions to that market and creating artificial rarity with high profile variants. They don't care if you keep them, just as Random House don't care about their secondary market despite lending or reselling supposedly being against the agreement printed in the book.

Cheers JK. I can see and accept your point that Marvel is not solely producing floppies for collectors.

But yes... I do keep coming back back to point about what typical buyer actually does with their books. Because I am interested in that issue! Is there some deep reason why that is an invalid area for questions?

[Mike_Murdock]

Why are the covers of the comics not hardcover?

Just a random comment, but I hate hardcover. Or, at least, I prefer it far less to paperback. Sure, it looks nicer, but collecting something doesn't preclude reading it and HC are harder to read.

Why is there no buyback program replenish/refurbish program offered by them? Why is there not an evergreen option to pay them whatever to print you a copy of Action comics #1 50 years later or Thor #700 in 2027?

Well, for that, it's partly because comics being destroyed increase the value for the remainder. People who want to read a story rather than collect a story would probably prefer it be constantly reprinted. It's worth pointing out Marvel used to reprint things a lot more than they do now. But they do sell them in Epic Collections, Masterworks, etc.

[Punjabi_Hitman]

But original design intention/ manufacturing standards of comics do not force any buyer into using them in a predetermined way. That original design does not force quick disposal...I have comics in fine condition 50 years old. Not bagged, not boarded, and read a few times.

Come on..that statement is factual. If I buy a brand new Marvel floppy..then I can do what I want with it for a wide range of activities. I can read it and bin it. I can wrap my fish and chips in it. I can read it and store it. I can read it and give it to friends and family. Again purely factual.

So if we have a hundred buyers...some may read it and throw it away soon after, soon may read it and store it, etc. Again factual..if you really believe that ALL buyers quickly dispose of brand new floppies soon after reading...then I'm very, very puzzled how anybody could believe that.

So we come to the question I've asked repeatedly...and some posters repeatedly neglect to answer:-

"Do you really believe a typical buyer of a brand new floppy gives it a quick read, then bins it?"

Simple question...just needs a yes or no answer. It's really not complex. If you don't answer...you can probably see why I suspect it's because that simple answer undermines the contention that todays floppies are treated (by typical buyer) as quick disposal items.

Yes the consumer becomes the collector not because of the corporation but because of the consumer.

People collect cars, people even collect cereal boxes yet one wouldn't assume these are nothing but disposable once consumed.

[millernumber1]

If it was to do with variants that was the shop's choice. Economic behaviour isn't sad, it's just what happens. How people choose to act. Marvel are getting what they can from the deal. Seriously everyone just stop buying variant covers, they are literally not worth the paper. Sadly my saying that has zero influence on the market, on retailers or on Marvel. So good luck to the collectors the retailers and Marvel.

Economic behavior is definitely sad when it leads to economic losses, people losing jobs, stores closing, etc. Does that make it Marvel's fault? No. Do I think they should stop encouraging it? Absolutely. But then, I'm a DC fan who likes the Cover A/Cover B approach.