Retailer Fury At Marvel NYCC Panel

[SignorMiracolo]

Don't bother. We're fighting a lost cause, man. They ain't gonna give it a try since he doesn't like what they like.

Well, it may come as a surprise to you, but there are people like you, that by your own admission like to follow him even if he is someone that «used autism as an insult» and «called a transexual person a man in a wig», because «he likes what you like», and people that after similar statements wouldn't follow him even if «he liked totally everything they liked». It's called “ethics”.

And even if he wasn't, by my standards, a disgusting person, could you explain to me why should I follow someone that review comics that doesn't share my taste? It would not make any sense.

[cranger]

As you can see facts differ greatly from your and other people believe that Marvel has lost sales and fans because it has replaced some old characters.

These solo books have never really sold well at all for a very long time. Some of them had a few decent runs at points but it has usually been Spider-Man, Avengers and X-Men driving sales. The problem is the "flagship" books are not where they were at anymore. The question is why? And how does the lack of "original" characters matter?

An argument could be made that readers who are drawn in by the popular characters tend to be interested in the Marvel Universe as a whole and buy other titles. Perhaps people who are recommended a newer Marvel book because of that particular character (or writer or artist) just don't care about many other books than that one. Maybe more people are reading Marvel, but fewer of them are Marvel readers (i.e., Zombies).

It is just one possible effect that may be occurring, which would impact retailers more than Marvel itself because Marvel has a lot more leverage over retailers than retailers have over readers. Retailers can usually not react until copies are sitting unsold and then they usually order less, but Marvel counters that by using incentives to increase orders which retailers "don't have to" buy into but they do, and Marvel profits regardless of whether those incentives do anything as far as readers.

[WebLurker]

These solo books have never really sold well at all for a very long time. Some of them had a few decent runs at points but it has usually been Spider-Man, Avengers and X-Men driving sales. The problem is the "flagship" books are not where they were at anymore. The question is why? And how does the lack of "original" characters matter?

Everything has their good times and bad times. We have seen this before. Also, if new characters are handled well, they can establish themselves, even to people most invested in the old guard.

An argument could be made that readers who are drawn in by the popular characters tend to be interested in the Marvel Universe as a whole and buy other titles. Perhaps people who are recommended a newer Marvel book because of that particular character (or writer or artist) just don't care about many other books than that one. Maybe more people are reading Marvel, but fewer of them are Marvel readers (i.e., Zombies).

Why are we "supposed" to want to read everything that Marvel makes just because we've been reading one or a few things that they make?

It is just one possible effect that may be occurring, which would impact retailers more than Marvel itself because Marvel has a lot more leverage over retailers than retailers have over readers. Retailers can usually not react until copies are sitting unsold and then they usually order less, but Marvel counters that by using incentives to increase orders which retailers "don't have to" buy into but they do, and Marvel profits regardless of whether those incentives do anything as far as readers.

Huh.

[cranger]

Why are we "supposed" to want to read everything that Marvel makes just because we've been reading one or a few things that they make?

You are not supposed to. But that is what a Marvel Zombie is. That is the appeal of the shared universe. That is why they do events and crossovers, why characters from different teams switch up. That is what Marvel markets and that is what the Direct Market has relied on.

[Username taken]

You are not supposed to. But that is what a Marvel Zombie is. That is the appeal of the shared universe. That is why they do events and crossovers, why characters from different teams switch up. That is what Marvel markets and that is what the Direct Market has relied on.

Good point and it's something that's been touched on in other threads. With the astronomical increase in the price of comics I don't think we have too many hardcore fans left buying comics like when I (some 30+ years ago) was a child. Growing up, I used to collect ALL the X-men and Spider-man books because they were relatively cheap compared to other forms of entertainment at the time, I seriously doubt anyone is doing that today.

The DM basically caters to the hardcore fans (excluding titles like Star Wars and other licensed properties). The problem now (and this isn't specific to Marvel) is that it seems hardcore fans aren't coming into the stores at the rate they were before (hence the slump in average sales over the years). The current slump isn't restricted to Marvel and DC, Independents have experienced a massive sales drop compared to where they were years ago.

Lets not kid ourselves, how many people are willing to spend roughly $40-$50 on comic books when this money could be used to buy other more "value for money" forms of entertainment like video games?.

IMO, I think the publishers should start thinking out of the direct market. The deals with Scholastic is definitely the right way to go and maybe focus should be placed more on book stores than the traditional comic store.

[rui no onna]

Good point and it's something that's been touched on in other threads. With the astronomical increase in the price of comics I don't think we have too many hardcore fans left buying comics like when I (some 30+ years ago) was a child. Growing up, I used to collect ALL the X-men and Spider-man books because they were relatively cheap compared to other forms of entertainment at the time, I seriously doubt anyone is doing that today.

The DM basically caters to the hardcore fans (excluding titles like Star Wars and other licensed properties). The problem now (and this isn't specific to Marvel) is that it seems hardcore fans aren't coming into the stores at the rate they were before (hence the slump in average sales over the years). The current slump isn't restricted to Marvel and DC, Independents have experienced a massive sales drop compared to where they were years ago.

Lets not kid ourselves, how many people are willing to spend roughly $40-$50 on comic books when this money could be used to buy other more "value for money" forms of entertainment like video games?.

IMO, I think the publishers should start thinking out of the direct market. The deals with Scholastic is definitely the right way to go and maybe focus should be placed more on book stores than the traditional comic store.

Alas, the indies were propped up by the speculator market hoping to find the next Walking Dead or even the next Saga. That kinda died down. Right now, it's variant collectors/speculators. But yeah, comics are relatively expensive compared to other types of entertainment.

[SignorMiracolo]

True. But his critizisms dont have a bigoted slant from what ive seen. Not wanting forced politics in comics is a view shared by many.

Imo comics should focus on good stories and art before political agendas. But the current political landscape of the world makes that quite immpossible it seems.

The problem is, >90% of Marvel output has nothing in it that can be called even remotely “political” and when I say >90% I am no exaggerating, there is probably 2 or 3 books that have somewhat political or social contents out of at least 70 published monthly, Black Panther, Champions, sometime Ms Marvel, what else?. It's inevitable that people that make all this fuss about Marvel being too political, or forcing politics on their viewers, while publishing 65 non political book out of 75 every month, will come out as intolerant, extremists and fanatics. What they ask is for all the comics to cater to them, it's quite entitled and ridiculous. Even if we count all the books that have a minority or a woman as the main character, (Miles, Riri, Jane, Cap Marvel, Ms Marvel, Cho, Jennifer, BP, Falcon, Cage, Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl) we are at 12 out of 70 books, it's 15% of the books Marvel publishes. And having problems with a book just because it's main character it's not a white male is racist or misogynist. Honestly, nobody believes the excuses «it's not the race or gender it's the art or story.» There are so many books, so many non political books (the vast majority), and so many books without women or minorities, that when someone make all this fuss because he can't stand the fact that 5-10% of a publisher output doesn't cater to his taste, it doesn't need a genius to understand his real motives.

[PhantomStranger]

That's cute...

Dr Aphras is, if a bit annoying, still a marginally interesting, developed character, unlike America Chavez who is nothing but a collection of extremist lesbian cliches/stereotypes and dialogue that sounds more like a Feminist Theory 201 lecture than anything else.

[Redjack]

The DM basically caters to the hardcore fans (excluding titles like Star Wars and other licensed properties). The problem now (and this isn't specific to Marvel) is that it seems hardcore fans aren't coming into the stores at the rate they were before (hence the slump in average sales over the years). The current slump isn't restricted to Marvel and DC, Independents have experienced a massive sales drop compared to where they were years ago..

Why, it's almost as if the business model has finally run its course.

Nostalgia = Death and we are seeing it evidenced in these cries of "Why can't everything be exactly the way it was when I was 12?" Because it can't, that's why. Put on your big person pants, stand up and accept that change = life. Marvel is fine. If anything is dying it's the nostalgia market. If so, raise a glass. It should have died decades ago.

The price point is too high to be attractive to kids who are the market that will, in theory, replenish the current one. No kids buying comics, no future for super-hero comics. QED

As for the rest… Decades of catering to the nostalgia market has given some of the "fans" a sense of toxic entitlement that we are seeing evidenced in arguments like these. Marvel's marketing schemes clearly do not allow for enough retailer flexibility which is, in some cases, hurting their bottom lines. And let us not forget the rise, amazing nature, variety and ubiquity of competing media which is cheaper (for what you get) and more immersive and exciting than a simple comic book.

Almost all these are functions of the market, not Marvel exclusively and people who refuse to recognize this are forming opinions based upon incomplete, therefore faulty, data.

And, of course, none of it, not one tiny bit of it, has to do with the CONTENT of the comics. The Big Two made a power grab with the DM which allows them to have near perfect control over what retailers can and can't do with their product. For giant companies retailer woes need to be uniform and dominant, numerically, before the big company will even notice them. Retailers fail all the time and new shops are launched. Unless we're talking more than a quarter of the retailers feeling exactly the same pain exactly the same way, Marvel and DC will not care. They might say they care for politics sake but they don't. Why should they?

Adapt. Modify how your shop works, what and what variety of product it sells and who, locally, you're trying to lure in. Or don't and die. That's commerce.

Arguing about this "SJW" nonsense generates views for some of these youtube guys and, above a certain number that means ad revenue for the popular channel. Since no one's watching a channel about the nuances of over-shipping, amortization, department synergy and the like, you can see why they gravitate to low-end "analyses" of a business they don't actually know anything about but which feed and support their existing EMOTIONAL anxieties. It's easy to feed off the bottom.

““No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people..” H.L. Mencken

[PhantomStranger]

Good point and it's something that's been touched on in other threads. With the astronomical increase in the price of comics I don't think we have too many hardcore fans left buying comics like when I (some 30+ years ago) was a child. Growing up, I used to collect ALL the X-men and Spider-man books because they were relatively cheap compared to other forms of entertainment at the time, I seriously doubt anyone is doing that today.

The DM basically caters to the hardcore fans (excluding titles like Star Wars and other licensed properties). The problem now (and this isn't specific to Marvel) is that it seems hardcore fans aren't coming into the stores at the rate they were before (hence the slump in average sales over the years). The current slump isn't restricted to Marvel and DC, Independents have experienced a massive sales drop compared to where they were years ago.

Lets not kid ourselves, how many people are willing to spend roughly $40-$50 on comic books when this money could be used to buy other more "value for money" forms of entertainment like video games?.

Using a standard inflation calculator, Marvel's books should cost ~ $2.20 (based on what they cost in 1993), assuming no other changes in quality, etc.

I would spend about $30/month back then and get ~24 comics (not counting specials/annuals/etc). Today I would be lucky to get 10 comics for that price (even if I had that kind of money to blow on comic books), and the books are lower page-count and lower quality art/writing in general, even before considering the politicized art and writing.

[PhantomStranger]

Arguing about this "SJW" nonsense generates views for some of these youtube guys and, above a certain number that means ad revenue for the popular channel. Since no one's watching a channel about the nuances of over-shipping, amortization, department synergy and the like, you can see why they gravitate to low-end "analyses" of a business they don't actually know anything about but which feed and support their existing EMOTIONAL anxieties. It's easy to feed off the bottom.

By your own claim you don't watch or follow them, so how do YOU know what they do and don't talk about. I've heard plenty of talk about over-shipping, etc. I don't thinks any of them have done an entire vid about it, but it does get discussed.

I will grant you a point about price (the only thing you've said that has any validity). The price of comics is significantly higher than it's inflation-adjusted cost, and higher still when you take into account lower page counts, less-dense writing/art, etc.

[Redjack]

Have you actually watched his videos?

D&C has a Muslim daughter. His favorite Marvel character is Night Thrasher (a black superhero) and he absolutely loves Jo Duffy (a woman writer).

He just doesnt like the current sjw politics in the books or the lack of current quality stories and artwork.

then he and those who agree with him, should not buy the books they don't like. no one should buy anything they don't actually like. if enough people don't buy the thing, the thing will stop being made. As hate-buying is still buying no company cares if you hate it as long as you keep giving them money.

if the fans of these guys have already stopped buying the comics they hate, they have proven there aren't enough of them to hurt the company's revenue stream. They've already opted out and thus, don't matter anymore. Their, your, numbers are not sufficient to influence anything. You're not shareholders. You don't have any access to internal business decisions or editorial oversight, while the little hate clubs may be gratifying to their members, they don't actually matter to anyone outside the bubble.

With apologies to Lemony Snicket, "Outside the bubble," in this instance, is a phrase that means, "the real world."

[Redjack]

By your own claim you don't watch or follow them, so how do YOU know what they do and don't talk about. I've heard plenty of talk about over-shipping, etc. I don't thinks any of them have done an entire vid about it, but it does get discussed.

I will grant you a point about price (the only thing you've said that has any validity). The price of comics is significantly higher than it's inflation-adjusted cost, and higher still when you take into account lower page counts, less-dense writing/art, etc.

Everything I say has validity because everything I say is true. Makes life easier for everyone when you never lie about anything and try as much as you can to confine yourself to facts.

As for what they talk about? Well I see the stellar and consistent "arguments" made by their adherents in these boards, often paraphrasing the words and opinions of the little cult leaders. So, y'know, I can glean.

Here's a hint. If you're using the term "SJW" to describe anything in the real world, nothing you say about the real world or the people in it has value. You're just identifying yourself as a bigot and demanding people dismiss you as such.

[PhantomStranger]

then he and those who agree with him, should not buy the books they don't like. no one should buy anything they don't actually like. if enough people don't buy the thing, the thing will stop being made. As hate-buying is still buying no company cares if you hate it as long as you keep giving them money.

if the fans of these guys have already stopped buying the comics they hate, they have proven there aren't enough of them to hurt the company's revenue stream. They've already opted out and thus, don't matter anymore. Their, your, numbers are not sufficient to influence anything. You're not shareholders. You don't have any access to internal business decisions or editorial oversight, while the little hate clubs may be gratifying to their members, they don't actually matter to anyone outside the bubble.

With apologies to Lemony Snicket, "Outside the bubble," in this instance, is a phrase that means, "the real world."

I would say books like America Chavez selling ~10,000 copies/month (assuming no overship) is hurting revenues when better-selling books have been cancelled.

And truly popular characters like Spidey, etc selling in the 50,000 range or less are simply pathetic. They sold better AFTER the speculator bubble burst, and even during the Meltdown.

[PhantomStranger]

Everything I say has validity because everything I say is true.

Prove it. I'm still waiting for you to prove the retailers are lying.

Makes life easier for everyone when you never lie about anything and try as much as you can to confine yourself to facts.

What "facts"? I can document the statements of the retailers. You don't document anything. You just call them "liars" without any evidence.

As for what they talk about? Well I see the stellar and consistent "arguments" made by their adherents in these boards, often paraphrasing the words and opinions of the little cult leaders. So, y'know, I can glean.

So not only are you not stating facts, you are freely admitting you refuse to be exposed to them in the first place.

Here's a hint. If you're using the term "SJW" to describe anything in the real world, nothing you say about the real world or the people in it has value. You're just identifying yourself as a bigot and demanding people dismiss you as such.

In your opinion. Not supported by the facts.