What was so Bad about the clone saga from the 90s

[Miles To Go]

I'm not blind to the flaws of the Clone Saga I just feel the good outweighs the bad.

I'm with you. I have a lot of fond memories of the Clone Saga, and yes there are very patchy areas, mostly everything in between Aunt May's death and Ben taking over, but everything before and after then is pretty pacy, intriguing, emotional and action-packed...and, as I've said, most of the saga does gets a pretty rosey resolution in Spider-Girl.

Bor, did you ever manage to read the "Real Clone Saga" mini-series from Tom D and Howard Mackie which Marvel published during the BND era? Did you think it was an improvement?

[Bor]

I'm not blind to the flaws of the Clone Saga I just feel the good outweighs the bad.

If you honestly think that every part of the clone saga is better then all the stories we have gotten over the last ten years then I really think you are. The clone saga had good momements just like the last decade has, but saying they were all better then the things we have had since OMD is ridicules.

[Bor]

I'm with you. I have a lot of fond memories of the Clone Saga, and yes there are very patchy areas, mostly everything in between Aunt May's death and Ben taking over, but everything before and after then is pretty pacy, intriguing, emotional and action-packed...and, as I've said, most of the saga does gets a pretty rosey resolution in Spider-Girl.

Bor, did you ever manage to read the "Real Clone Saga" mini-series from Tom D and Howard Mackie which Marvel published during the BND era? Did you think it was an improvement?

Yeah I did read that mini. It has some good elements. Its been a while since I read last, maybe when it originally came out?, but even then I remember not being that crazy about it. If I remember correctly it has some of the opposit problems for me compared to the 90s storyline with everthing being to condenced. It did streamline a lot of things and quite frankly I think I might prefer it with Harry instead of Norman returning. But that might be because I always like Harrys original death and felt that since he returned in BND there was only two moments I really liked with him. The ekstra story where he and Peter played bad Baskett ball and the moment he finally toll Norman off in American Son.
Even so I dont really know if I think it was that much of a improvement. I still have a fondness for the clone saga since that was when I started reading the comics but I am also not going to defend the parts that really has not aged well. I mean if someone came to me asked me to recommend some good Spider-man stories I would never recommend them going back and starting with the clone saga. There a plenty of stories from the last ten years I would suggest before that.
Why do you ask?

[WeirdSpider]

If you honestly think that every part of the clone saga is better then all the stories we have gotten over the last ten years then I really think you are. The clone saga had good momements just like the last decade has, but saying they were all better then the things we have had since OMD is ridicules.

As I said before the Clone Saga had character development. The Bland New Day era on the other hand doesn't. Peter has been reduced to a manchild who keeps fucking up his life because Marvel has an obsession with him being a young hero.

Bor, did you ever manage to read the "Real Clone Saga" mini-series from Tom D and Howard Mackie which Marvel published during the BND era? Did you think it was an improvement?

Not yet, but I've heard of it.

[Bor]

As I said before the Clone Saga had character development. The Bland New Day era on the other hand doesn't. Peter has been reduced to a manchild who keeps fucking up his life because Marvel has an obsession with him being a young hero.

Before we start going more in circles and deraild this thread too much I will just say that I find that to be waaaay to simply a viewpoint and ignoring a whole lot of good stories. I maintain that anyone who will make statements that stories like P.O.S is better then everything from the last ten years are completely blind to the flaws of those stories or have not actually read all the stories from the last decade that they rag against.

I am really mad at myself for not realizing sooner how fitting it is that Planet of the Symbiotes could be shortned to that. Its just so fitting.

[Miles To Go]

Why do you ask?

Just wanted to gauge opinions on that mini-series since it came around at a time where there was some buzz about Ben Reilly in 2009, I believe the plan at the time was to bring him back around then in the main canon but he got caught up in editorial red tape. Things like that Ben issue of the Spider-Man/X-Men mini and "Real Clone Saga" were meant to be appetizers to a main course they took until 2016 to cook.

I have it in both comic and trade paperback format. Like you said, it's a very condensed read and feels rushed in a lot of areas, it lacks all the more problematic elements, but the need to streamline means it can't get quite as gut-punching emotional either. I suppose it's a good read if you like a lot of Peter/MJ fluff and Peter not being a supreme level jerkass, but yeah, it's not substantially meaty.

But hey, you get to see 90s "White Suit" Doc Ock again so why complain too much?

[Bor]

Just wanted to gauge opinions on that mini-series since it came around at a time where there was some buzz about Ben Reilly in 2009, I believe the plan at the time was to bring him back around then in the main canon but he got caught up in editorial red tape. Things like that Ben issue of the Spider-Man/X-Men mini and "Real Clone Saga" were meant to be appetizers to a main course they took until 2016 to cook.

I have it in both comic and trade paperback format. Like you said, it's a very condensed read and feels rushed in a lot of areas, it lacks all the more problematic elements, but the need to streamline means it can't get quite as gut-punching emotional either. I suppose it's a good read if you like a lot of Peter/MJ fluff and Peter not being a supreme level jerkass, but yeah, it's not substantially meaty.

Yeah that fits well with what I remember. I think the main problem for me is that it cuts out most of one of the things I actually enjoyed most about the clone saga: Ben as Spider-man. I liked his supporting cast and his suit is still one of my favorite alternative versions of the original.

White suit Oc does have a place in my heart too. I never really took to the new version. She never felt right with me.

[Miles To Go]

White suit Oc does have a place in my heart too. I never really took to the new version. She never felt right with me.

Caroline Trainer...yeah. That was a thing. Bendis used her lately against Riri.

Wonder if they'll revive her father now that Ben's back?

[Spidey5640]

Not a fan of the clone saga, came very close to dropping spidey. Worse thing IMO is that it made clone storylines maintstream and acceptable. I hate clone stories. they are a cheap gimmick to tease some great earth-shaking change to a character or title only to be made completely irrelevant at the end when it is revealed it wasn't the real character, it was only a clone. happens in every single one.

[TheCape]

Planet of Symbiots was weird and kind of dumb, but i thougth that the ending was clever, sadly ut wasn't properly explored abd ended being a sort of sidenote, just like all those mini's of Venom (seriously, Venom is a villain, stop trying to make him some sort of good guy, he is a villain with standards in his best day).

[SuperiorIronman]

To put it bluntly, it had a lot that didn't work. Marketing stepping in and overextending it, Maximum clonage, and Peter getting replaced with himself was and still is hard for a lot of people largely because of the history associated with that incarnation. Also Peter assaulted a pregnant Mary Jane.

On the bright side if you're willing to read about Ben Reilly and have a soft spot for really goofy stories (animal people, VR reality warping, Ben being more competent than modern Peter) you might have a good time with it. Just steer clear of a lot of the other Spider titles of the period.

[Miles To Go]

Also Peter assaulted a pregnant Mary Jane..

And she forgave him, so can we move on from that already?

I've got a really nasty feeling that the more fans rag on about that, some fan-turned-writer is going to make that the next Hank/Jan if the marriage/relationship is ever brought back.

[Bor]

Caroline Trainer...yeah. That was a thing. Bendis used her lately against Riri.

Wonder if they'll revive her father now that Ben's back?

If the series goes on long enough, which I hope it does, I am sure they will.

[Bor]

And she forgave him, so can we move on from that already?

I've got a really nasty feeling that the more fans rag on about that, some fan-turned-writer is going to make that the next Hank/Jan if the marriage/relationship is ever brought back.

I think its one of those things like the the pregancy that Marvel is happy to ignore or dont want their writers to mention.

Also thats actually might be my favorite thing to kind of come out from the clone saga: Spider-girl.

[Miles To Go]

If the series goes on long enough, which I hope it does, I am sure they will.

Surprised that didn't come up during Clone Conspiracy, but then, I think only Mendel and Norman knew where the body went

Also thats actually might be my favorite thing to kind of come out from the clone saga: Spider-girl.

Very much so. I probably would have had a more sour opinion on the Clone Saga if Spider-Girl didn't exist...but that book helps elevate it a lot. The only drawback is it gave us a rather grouchy Peter Parker.