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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That's a good point.

    Is Barry being declared the best Flash really so much worse than when it was done with Wally? Or does it only seem worse to the Wally fans, even though it's pretty much the same?

    Sort of like how Hal being declared the greatest GL both in and out of universe is a bit obnoxious...but Kyle got plenty of transparent shilling as well, to the point where even friggin Dream of the Endless said he'd surpass Hal Jordan. This crap didn't arrive with DiDio and Johns.
    Shilling does exist, and almost always favor the current starring character in a role. But if I may make a slight argument for why Wally fans may have a justified tendency to bristle at Barry getting explicit pride of place...

    Wally wound up having a character arc that seemed to let him earn a mantle as "The Flash, Evolved." Because his first major creator made him significantly slower than Barry, when he broke past that limit while duking it out with Reverse-Flash (who was acting as an almost perfect reflection of Wally's "inadequacy" as Barry's successor), the moment felt like an official crowning of Wally as Barry's equal, even though Barry had the usual Silver Age OP history. Then, of course, Waid continued his run by having Wally discover the Speed Force and focusing multiple stories around him learning how to control and manipulate it in a manner totally unique in comparison to Barry's abilities. The trend continued and arguably culminated in Wally taking on his own Zoom, who was initially portrayed as *above* super-speed, since Zoom controlled his own momentum in time itself. I mean, post-Blitz, Wally feels like a more powerful and disciplined take on the concept of the Flash, created over decades and featuring in almost universally praised books (in comparison to Kyle, at least.)

    The delivery speed and degree of shilling Barry got upon returning does feel like an overcompensation for the new paradigm Johns established; on a strictly subjective level, Wally earning his credentials slowly over decades felt more genuine than a quick retcon hammering Barry into the center of the Flash universe that was altered by and for Wally. Green Lantern at least had the excuse of having simultaneously Hal's power and experience played up as extraordinary during his heel turn, while that same heel turn also ticked off fans far more than Barry's dignified and heroic finale, and already came with a vehicle by which a "first among equals" system could be enforced thanks to John and Guy.

    Ideally, they probably could have played with the Wally and Barry dichotomy better with some differentiation, sort of like what could work with Cassandra Cain and Babs Gordon as Batgirl: perhaps they could make Wally *clearly* and *significantly* the more skilled manipulator of the Speed Force while Barry's generation of it gives him a more natural raw physical edge, and then maybe suggest that the difference and approach and powers leads to very different uses of power. Maybe Barry can accelerate his mind to keep up with his top speeds in a way Wally would need help to reach. Or maybe Wally can enter the time stream without any aid much more easily than Barry, but lacks the specific control Barry can attain with the Cosmic Treadmill.

    In any case, it's an issue that may have been moot if they'd followed through on the original plan and allowed Johns to launch a Speed Force title.
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  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That's a good point.

    Is Barry being declared the best Flash really so much worse than when it was done with Wally? Or does it only seem worse to the Wally fans, even though it's pretty much the same?

    Sort of like how Hal being declared the greatest GL both in and out of universe is a bit obnoxious...but Kyle got plenty of transparent shilling as well, to the point where even friggin Dream of the Endless said he'd surpass Hal Jordan. This crap didn't arrive with DiDio and Johns.
    Yes but that doesn't seem to suit some people's narrative. It's always lame when a publisher tries to portray certain characters as being better than others, but that also happened with both Kyle and Wally as you said and these people don't seem to mind. They only have a problem if it's "the silver age guys".

    As far as this story is concerned, I'm glad that Wally will be given a prominent role in a Flash book again. That's what people wanted and it's happening.
    Last edited by Johnny; 10-07-2017 at 04:28 AM.

  3. #48
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    I don't see them saying Wally is better than Barry when it's Barry's own book. But I do hope Wally gets his own hero name after this.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    But I do hope Wally gets his own hero name after this.
    Thing is, calling him Brightwing or whatever would just formalise his "demotion", wouldn't it?

    Still, for better or worse, choices are being made. Frankly, they could do a "Wally West: Flash" or "Flash: Fastest Man Alive" or whatever book set in Keystone with only as much overlap with Barry's book as Nightwing does with Batman. But they've decided it wouldn't sell, or would 'dilute the brand' or whatever.

  5. #50
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    Us Wally fans need to brace ourselves for the worse.
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  6. #51
    Mighty Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    I can only see this ending with Wally getting a new identity. With Barry on TV and the big screen, they are not removing him as Flash.

  7. #52
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    This seems like dangerous territory.

  8. #53
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    Perhaps Wally finds out Barry accidentally erased his children from timeline.

  9. #54
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    Okay, I talked to Joshua today at NYCC, partly because I wanted to get a trade signed and partially because I was curious about Flash War. First off, let me say he seems like a really friendly guy and he was lovely and easy to talk too. I really felt this is a guy I could have talked Flash with a few hours. He's also pretty accessible and was absolutely willing to talk about the upcoming arc and address any concerns I might have. As soon as I mentioned Flash War, he asked if I was concerned and he asked me who my favorite Flash was. I answered Wally and he went on to mention the following (keep in mind I am paraphrasing):

    -He is a big fan of Wally and a huge reason behind this storyline is that he wants Wally in the book more.

    -This story arc reflects his desire to bring back a Flash family, which he said wouldn't be possible to do without Wally.

    -This story arc is not Civil War, nor is it a competition, it is a different way of examining the Barry/Wally relationship (he compared it to brothers or a father and son).

    -He said there would be a disagreement between the two at the center of the story (which really is unexplored territory in my personal opinion).

    -He said he thinks Flash fans will be happy with how it ends.

    -For the record, I did not ask about other members of the Flash Family other than Barry, Wally, and NuWally.

    Personally, I think this arc could be promising. Barry and Wally haven't really been in conflict at all since...well, must have been before the Crisis, so exploring their relationship when they aren't seeing eye-to-eye has great potential and it sounds like the plan is for Wally to have a bigger role in the main Flash title overall.

    Frankly, anyone who is worried about what this story means for Barry or Wally and happens to be at NYCC tomorrow should try seeking Joshua out at Artist Alley. Those of you who might be more interested in Jay, Max, or Bart, it probably couldn't hurt to ask him about them either, though I'm not sure how much he'd be able to tell you. He really seems like a very accessible guy who does have an awareness of the fandom and he was very open to talk about concerns, although I would suggest sharing concerns in a polite and respectful manner. Either way, I think Flash War could be very good.
    Last edited by Sam; 10-07-2017 at 08:23 PM.

  10. #55
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Okay, I talked to Joshua today at NYCC, partly because I wanted to get a trade signed and partially because I was curious about Flash War. First off, let me say he seems like a really friendly guy and he was lovely and easy to talk too. I really felt this is a guy I could have talked Flash with a few hours. He's also pretty accessible and was absolutely willing to talk about the upcoming arc and address any concerns I might have. As soon as I mentioned Flash War, he asked if I was concerned and he asked me who my favorite Flash was. I answered Wally and he went on to mention the following (keep in mind I am paraphrasing):

    -He is a big fan of Wally and a huge reason behind this storyline is that he feels wants Wally in the book more.

    -This story arc reflects his desire to bring back a Flash family, which he said wouldn't be possible to do without Wally.

    -This story arc is not Civil War, nor is it a competition, it is a different way of examining the Barry/Wally relationship (he compared it to brothers or a father and son).

    -He said there would be a disagreement between the two at the center of the story (which really is unexplored territory in my personal opinion).

    -He said he thinks Flash fans will be happy with how it ends.

    -For the record, I did not ask about other members of the Flash Family other than Barry, Wally, and NuWally.

    Personally, I think this arc could be promising. Barry and Wally haven't really been in conflict at all since...well, must have been before the Crisis, so exploring their relationship when they aren't seeing eye-to-eye has great potential and it sounds like the plan is for Wally to have a bigger role in the main Flash title overall.

    Frankly, anyone who is worried about what this story means for Barry or Wally and happens to be at NYCC tomorrow should try seeking Joshua out at Artist Alley. Those of you who might be more interested in Jay, Max, or Bart, it probably couldn't hurt to ask him about them either, though I'm not sure how much he'd be able to tell you. He really seems like a very accessible guy who does have an awareness of the fandom and he was very open to talk about concerns, although I would suggest sharing concerns in a polite and respectful manner. Either way, I think Flash War could be very good.
    This sounds pretty good.

    I've really liked how Williamson has handled Barry so far, and also classic Wally in that one issue he guest starred in. This has the potential to be very interesting, especially as the father/son (or brothers) angle sounds like a disagreement between family, which they are and have always been in one form or another.

    I'm not really afraid for Wally in this as long as Williamson is writing it. I am kind of afraid of potential backlash from fandom if this concludes with Wally in a brand new role that they don't like, or ends with Barry still being lead Flash (which is likely).

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Barry and Wally haven't really been in conflict at all since...well, must have been before the Crisis
    As far as I know, ESPECIALLY not before the CRISIS, and never really since. Barry and Wally have had a mentor/mentee relationship that all the other heroes and sidekicks could only envy, so this is truly unexplored territory.

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  12. #57
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    The concept of Flash family was built during Wally's run. Max and Bart was created then. The Quicks and Jay were in a different earth pre-COIE. The Flash family more or less ended with Barry's return and Wally stopped being at the forefront. Now they want to bring the Flash Family back, Barry undoubtedly will be the center of the Flash family. Is this fair? Taking over another thing from Wally? When Barry came back, all the rest speedsters just vanished to make room for him. And now he is going to be the star among the other speedsters?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAN9000 View Post
    The concept of Flash family was built during Wally's run. Max and Bart was created then. The Quicks and Jay were in a different earth pre-COIE. The Flash family more or less ended with Barry's return and Wally stopped being at the forefront. Now they want to bring the Flash Family back, Barry undoubtedly will be the center of the Flash family. Is this fair? Taking over another thing from Wally? When Barry came back, all the rest speedsters just vanished to make room for him. And now he is going to be the star among the other speedsters?
    Was it fair that Barry got yanked off the scene for twenty years while the family was thriving? Fairness cuts both ways.

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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Was it fair that Barry got yanked off the scene for twenty years while the family was thriving? Fairness cuts both ways.

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    So you interpret that as Barry came back and revenged himself on the family? lol. Interesting.
    The Flash family was thriving no thanks to Barry or his death. But the Flash family shrunk because of his return. So I'll answer your question as yes, it was fair.
    Last edited by HAN9000; 10-07-2017 at 10:49 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAN9000 View Post
    The concept of Flash family was built during Wally's run. Max and Bart was created then. The Quicks and Jay were in a different earth pre-COIE. The Flash family more or less ended with Barry's return and Wally stopped being at the forefront. Now they want to bring the Flash Family back, Barry undoubtedly will be the center of the Flash family. Is this fair? Taking over another thing from Wally? When Barry came back, all the rest speedsters just vanished to make room for him. And now he is going to be the star among the other speedsters?
    I assure you if history played out differently The rest of the Flash family would've flourished the same way The Green Lanterns did. I say that since Rebirth.....Er The mini-series Rebirth gave a lot of story forshadowing like Jai becoming jelous over Iris becoming a full speedster or Eobard & Hunter teaming up through whatever machination Kadabra was causing. Whatever the hell was happening to Gorilla City. I blame the Reboot more than I do Barry's return as to what happened to all the speedsters.

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