Flash War: Wally Classic vs. Barry

[Buried Alien]

I'm gonna have to side with B.A. on this one.

Thanks.

Even if the New 52 was Barry's fault(and it wasn't), Wally would side by him. And creating Flashpoint? Wally briefly created a reality where the Antimonitor won the Crisis on Infinite Earths battle; he travelled time to rescue an already deceased Linda Park from the Black Flash and, for all intents and purposes, erased the Black Flash from existence (and he was, like, a force of nature needed for the balance yada yada yada).

Were the ramifications of the Black Flash incident ever dealt with? I don't seem to remember any significant fallout, but perhaps I'm blanking out on some important storylines from that period.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[BohemiaDrinker]

All that said, I understand where you guys are coming from. I do. They went with Flash:Rebirth at a moment where demand for Barry wasn't exactly high, the series was bad, they shat on Wally because of it, multiple times, and then they used Barry to bring in this reboot which was not that great.

Hell, I am probably the most vocal Wally fan on this boards.

But it's not "Barry's" fault, guys, c'mon. When in doubt, blame management.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Were the ramifications of the Black Flash incident ever dealt with? I don't seem to remember any significant fallout, but perhaps I'm blanking out on some important storylines from that period.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

No, not really. He did appear again, though, I think - and Barry briefly became him on Rebirth (God, this is wrong on so many levels!). But since he is a metaphysical entity from a force "above" time, it's not that big of a deal.

[The Darknight Detective]

If you are willing to change the world or the course of history just for your personal benefit, then it is selfish, that's practically the definition of the word. No one, and I mean, absolutely no one, benefited from Barry's mom being alive, other than Barry.

Again, this is incorrect. He was trying to change the timeline back to what it should have been - he wasn't attempting a "saving Lincoln or Martin Luther King" moment here. Also again, every other speedster up to that time would have attempted the same exact thing and would have been right to do so, because up to then, there were zero problems when adjusting the timeline to its original point. Now if Barry and the rest were trying to change something after the problems caused byFlashpoint, then he or she could be accused of being selfish.

[Outside_85]

I'm gonna have to side with B.A. on this one.

Even if the New 52 was Barry's fault(and it wasn't), Wally would side by him. And creating Flashpoint? Wally briefly created a reality where the Antimonitor won the Crisis on Infinite Earths battle; he travelled time to rescue an already deceased Linda Park from the Black Flash and, for all intents and purposes, erased the Black Flash from existence (and he was, like, a force of nature needed for the balance yada yada yada).

I am not referring to the New 52 as a result as being solely Barry's fault.

I am referring to Barry opening the door for first Zoom and then Pandora or Manhattan in order for all of this to take place. None of this would have happened if Barry had not tried to change history.

[The Darknight Detective]

But it's not "Barry's" fault, guys, c'mon. When in doubt, blame management.

Until they become living, breathing entities in our own reality, at any rate.

[Outside_85]

Again, this is incorrect. He was trying to change the timeline back to what it should have been - he wasn't attempting a "saving Lincoln or Martin Luther King" moment here.

Wrong. What Barry would have done, if he had succeeded and intended to do was create a world where there never was a Flash. As a result, Wally would never have met Linda and their kids would never have existed either. Because this is now a world governed by the butterfly effect, you cannot go back in time and change anything without massive consequences in the present.

[The Darknight Detective]

Wrong. What Barry would have done, if he had succeeded and intended to do was create a world where there never was a Flash. As a result, Wally would never have met Linda and their kids would never have existed either. Because this is now a world governed by the butterfly effect, you cannot go back in time and change anything without massive consequences in the present.

Barry had 30 years experience doing exactly what you're saying he couldn't/shouldn't, though. I know because I have the stories.

[Kyer]

Wrong. What Barry would have done, if he had succeeded and intended to do was create a world where there never was a Flash. As a result, Wally would never have met Linda and their kids would never have existed either. Because this is now a world governed by the butterfly effect, you cannot go back in time and change anything without massive consequences in the present.

*Comes back in...*

"oh..dear..Lord..."

*Goes back out again...*

I hate Flash bang wars.

[Outside_85]

Barry had 30 years experience doing exactly what you're saying he couldn't/shouldn't, though. I know because I have the stories.

And since COIE's they dont exist.

[Frontier]

Wrong. What Barry would have done, if he had succeeded and intended to do was create a world where there never was a Flash. As a result, Wally would never have met Linda and their kids would never have existed either. Because this is now a world governed by the butterfly effect, you cannot go back in time and change anything without massive consequences in the present.

The original timeline had Barry becoming The Flash even with Nora still alive, because the whole dead mom thing wasn't brought up until Flash: Rebirth.

Otherwise Thawne would have never had a reason to go back in time in the first place.

The only reason, seemingly, that things got screwed up is that Barry setting the course of time back to normal, coupled with Thawne's original change, just basically screwed the timeline up (AKA plot contrivance).

And since COIE's they dont exists.

Where was that said? Because Barry's history was pretty much still intact afterwards, like with the Cosmic Treadmill.

[Buried Alien]

I am not referring to the New 52 as a result as being solely Barry's fault.

I am referring to Barry opening the door for first Zoom and then Pandora or Manhattan in order for all of this to take place. None of this would have happened if Barry had not tried to change history.

Thawne changed the history. That was the first domino to fall. The death of Nora Allen and the imprisonment of Henry Allen did not represent the natural development of the timeline, but the Allens' role was just the tip of the iceberg. If Thawne altered that, any number of things could also be altered going forward. Barry's goal was to restore the timeline to its natural, unaltered state.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kyer]

The red suit in Wally's left hand is Barry's. It's a Post-FLASHPOINT suit with visible segmentation and a chin guard, which was never a component of any Flash costume that Pre-FLASHPOINT Wally has ever worn.

It appears that Barry and the younger Wally are in some kind of distress, and the original Wally must locate and rescue them.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Oh thank goodness. Please let that (or something equally non-Flash fan wars) be it. There are enough DC villains to be fighting without doing a Marvel.

[The Darknight Detective]

Where was that said? Because Barry's history was pretty much still intact afterwards, like with the Cosmic Treadmill.

Exactly my point, Frontier. However, if someone can show somewhere in a comic book up to Flashpoint where the new rules of time travel had been delineated and Barry was fully aware of it, then I'll agree he was being selfish.

[Outside_85]

The original timeline had Barry becoming The Flash even with Nora still alive, because the whole dead mom thing wasn't brought up until Flash: Rebirth.

Otherwise Thawne would have never had a reason to go back in time in the first place.

The only reason, seemingly, that things got screwed up is that Barry setting the course of time back to normal, coupled with Thawne's original change, just basically screwed the timeline up (AKA plot contrivance).


Where was that said? Because Barry's history was pretty much still intact afterwards, like with the Cosmic Treadmill.

Because noone back then could care enough to give Barry a reason for being employed as a CSI tech before it was cool.

Thawne went back into the present day out of his hatred of the Flash due to the effects of the Flash in his own present. Thawne is not some Braniac, he is a madman, and he cannot see that what he is doing is create what he hates so much.

The only question that's relevant here is if Barry would ever have become the Flash if his mother had lived. Flashpoint, as the most recent example, says no.

People couldn't even remember a fraction what happened during COIE, let alone what actually came before it, where massive chunks of it was rewritten from the ground up, like Superman and Wonder Woman.

Thawne changed the history. That was the first domino to fall.

No, the first domino to fall was Barry trying to change the state of his mother from dead to alive.