Runaways

[Assam]

I disagree. I think giving the parents as much attention as they're getting allows us to better understand and appreciate the situation the kids are in. You can better put yourself in the kids shoes and appreciate the tough choices ahead of them by giving the parents the level of depth they have.

And if I felt the kids were being handled well at all, that'd be swell. At this point, I do not care about any of them and it sucks for me to say that. While the shallower characterizations for several of them compared to the comics are definitely an issue, the bigger problem is that I don't understand these characters' decisions at any time. From scene to scene and especially episode to episode, how these characters feel about one another and the situation at hand constantly changes without reason. It's why the scene of them coming together in the recent episode didn't land for me in the slightest. And of course, because of the show's abysmal pacing, 90% of what they actually do consists of b**ching or having the "Should we do something?" "We should something!" "Should we do something?" conversation.

[ZeroBG82]

I disagree. I think giving the parents as much attention as they're getting allows us to better understand and appreciate the situation the kids are in. You can better put yourself in the kids shoes and appreciate the tough choices ahead of them by giving the parents the level of depth they have.

Except that all that development for the parents has come at the expense of development of the kids, who, outside of Karolina and Chase, have NONE. If you didn't read the comics, you don't know a damn thing about any of these people or why they are doing any of the things they are. Nico is a one note trauma queen, Alex is both the token black kid and the token tech nerd. Gert is a walking cliche, who is apparently not self-aware enough to see that her crush on Chase flies in the face of everything she claims to believe politically and socially. Molly is little more than a MacGuffin most of the time, and the writers can't decide if they want her to be incredibly clever or incredibly stupid from scene to scene otherwise.

Karolina at least gets some meat with her growing identity crisis, and her feelings for Nico. And Chase gets to have his abusive relationship with his father, which is probably the only "real" emotional beat from any of the kids that has any resonance whatsoever. Maybe it's the casts fault, maybe they just don't have the chops (Karolina is pitch perfect, and Chase has moments, but the rest are wooden beyond belief).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It isn't a bad show. I find it quite entertaining. But it's a terrible, terrible adaptation of The Runaways. As a Pride origin story it totally works, and the adult cast carries the show a great deal. But I'm not watching for the Pride. So after next week, if the final episode of the first season doesn't finally get us somewhere that puts the emphasis on the kids, I won't be watching at all.

[Cyke]

Except that all that development for the parents has come at the expense of development of the kids, who, outside of Karolina and Chase, have NONE. If you didn't read the comics, you don't know a damn thing about any of these people or why they are doing any of the things they are. Nico is a one note trauma queen, Alex is both the token black kid and the token tech nerd. Gert is a walking cliche, who is apparently not self-aware enough to see that her crush on Chase flies in the face of everything she claims to believe politically and socially. Molly is little more than a MacGuffin most of the time, and the writers can't decide if they want her to be incredibly clever or incredibly stupid from scene to scene otherwise.

I've never read the comics so I can't come close to commenting on the source material, but as someone who's new to this world, I actually consider Karolina to have the weakest development. Molly's is straight forward but has perhaps the most prominent arc. Gert may be a cliche, but I felt it was pretty obvious that the thing blocking her crush with Chase wasn't her political and social beliefs, but just that deep down under an empowered and insightful exterior is an awkward and insecure woman, who really has no reason to be insecure. It also helps that Chase starts off as everything that Gert dislikes about patriarchy, the more he asserts himself and the more comfortable he feels in the group, the more of that male bravado shell he sheds, in deep contrast to the usual pretty boy jock athlete of so many other high school shows and movies (indeed, that he's sought to empower Karolina, Gert, and Molly throughout the series goes a long way, esp. in a team where men are the minority for a change).

I'll agree that Alex hasn't gotten very far in terms of development, but it helps that he's the leader, which gives him plenty to do already.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I understand that a different medium changes things, but for the Pride, I think the change to TV has diminished them in a way, and undermined the plot.

In the comic, the Pride were THE criminal organization in the West Coast, and the flashbacks demonstrate how the Pride went from small time criminals and such, to the power in the West Coast. Granted, in the comics they weren't facing a large enemy, but you did get the sense that they had deep resources and influence.

But in the show, the Pride comes off as just an average conspiracy, and what the members of the Pride get in return doesn't seem to be much. What does Jonah give them that they can't achieve on their own?

[ZeroBG82]

I've never read the comics so I can't come close to commenting on the source material, but as someone who's new to this world, I actually consider Karolina to have the weakest development. Molly's is straight forward but has perhaps the most prominent arc.

Molly has had no arc. She's the exact same character she was when the show started. She may know more about herself than she did before, but it has had absolutely no impact on her as a character. None. Which is still more impact than anything that's happened to Alex, who has been so much a rollercoaster in all his relationships that it's been impossible for him to develop. He literally feels whatever he has to so the writer can move the plot along, none of it is organic or earned. I really want to label the character wooden, but I can't tell if it's the actor or the writing (could be both).

And the development of the parents makes them more sympathetic characters, but it makes them terrible villains. Which the creators realized and introduced Jonah to be a proper bad guy. Which is, dramatically, fine. It creates narrative possibilities and let's everybody bounce off each other. It's the best part of this show, actually. (In terms of the source material, taking the most powerful west coast villains in the MU and reducing them to THIS probably leaves a certain portion of the fanbase upset. But I expect adaptations to make changes, and it doesn't bother me as much as it could.)

But the underlying problem remains the same. The kids are BY FAR the weakest part of their own show. That does the characters and the property a disservice.

100% not going to lie, I'd have rather not gotten an adaptation of the property than gotten this. The only two good things to come out of it are royalties to BKV and Alphona if they get them, and the new volume of the comic.

[Immortal Weapon]

But in the show, the Pride comes off as just an average conspiracy, and what the members of the Pride get in return doesn't seem to be much. What does Jonah give them that they can't achieve on their own?

Jonah helped Geoffrey Wilder get into real estate by being his partner. Seeing how he knew Karolina's grandfather I presume he is the figure that the crunch of Gibborim is founded on. Drawing a blank on the rest.

[XPac]

Molly has had no arc. She's the exact same character she was when the show started. She may know more about herself than she did before, but it has had absolutely no impact on her as a character. None. Which is still more impact than anything that's happened to Alex, who has been so much a rollercoaster in all his relationships that it's been impossible for him to develop. He literally feels whatever he has to so the writer can move the plot along, none of it is organic or earned. I really want to label the character wooden, but I can't tell if it's the actor or the writing (could be both).

And the development of the parents makes them more sympathetic characters, but it makes them terrible villains. Which the creators realized and introduced Jonah to be a proper bad guy. Which is, dramatically, fine. It creates narrative possibilities and let's everybody bounce off each other. It's the best part of this show, actually. (In terms of the source material, taking the most powerful west coast villains in the MU and reducing them to THIS probably leaves a certain portion of the fanbase upset. But I expect adaptations to make changes, and it doesn't bother me as much as it could.)

But the underlying problem remains the same. The kids are BY FAR the weakest part of their own show. That does the characters and the property a disservice.

100% not going to lie, I'd have rather not gotten an adaptation of the property than gotten this. The only two good things to come out of it are royalties to BKV and Alphona if they get them, and the new volume of the comic.

I don't think making a villain sympathetic makes them terrible. I think it often makes a villain better. Like ANY characters, they're usually better when they are fleshed out. When the audience has a greater understanding and appreciation for their motives, it's easier for us to get emotionally invested in them. And that is especially understandable in a conflict between a bunch of parents and their children. If there's any story which is justified in creating that sort of villain it's this one.

But yes... that does translate to giving the kids a bit less emphasis. Ultimately this isn't a show about the kids... it's about the family. Or at least that's what this season is about. I just don't have a problem with that. To me it's an entirely valid take on the source material.

[Cyke]

I don't think making a villain sympathetic makes them terrible. I think it often makes a villain better. Like ANY characters, they're usually better when they are fleshed out. When the audience has a greater understanding and appreciation for their motives, it's easier for us to get emotionally invested in them.

Just to add, it also makes the conflict with the protagonist that much richer, because then we see where the real interpersonal friction lies. And even villains who suffered childhood trauma like Magneto, Kingpin or Kilgrave show that sympathy doesn't invalidate their evil deeds at all -- it explains, but does not excuse, their actions.

[Beaubier]

And if I felt the kids were being handled well at all, that'd be swell. At this point, I do not care about any of them and it sucks for me to say that. While the shallower characterizations for several of them compared to the comics are definitely an issue, the bigger problem is that I don't understand these characters' decisions at any time. From scene to scene and especially episode to episode, how these characters feel about one another and the situation at hand constantly changes without reason. It's why the scene of them coming together in the recent episode didn't land for me in the slightest. And of course, because of the show's abysmal pacing, 90% of what they actually do consists of b**ching or having the "Should we do something?" "We should something!" "Should we do something?" conversation.

Nailed it. The writers have made a huge mistake in focusing on the parents as much as they have to the detriment of the kids. The show is called Runaways, not The Pride. But it’s like the writers are so focused on their own spin of the Pride and they only marginally care about the kids.

[ZeroBG82]

I don't think making a villain sympathetic makes them terrible.

I wasn't speaking generally. In this case, it absolutely does. The Pride went from West Coast's most badass villains, so powerful that nobody even knew they existed and that no hero would stand up to them, to a bunch of corrupt, rich schlubs who can't even get their **** together. It makes for better drama in the show, as you get all the little power plays and innuendos and their abject fear of Jonah to play with. It absolutely makes them stronger characters. But it makes them terrible, terrible villains.

And to the next poster's point, it can't make the conflict with the heroes stronger when the focus has utterly diminished the heroes. It just makes EVERYBODY look terrible. This is a show about spoiled, stupid, people being spoiled, stupid and selfish. Again, no an un-entertaining program, just a terrible adaptation of The Runaways.

[Midvillian1322]

Jonah helped Geoffrey Wilder get into real estate by being his partner. Seeing how he knew Karolina's grandfather I presume he is the figure that the crunch of Gibborim is founded on. Drawing a blank on the rest.

Helped with Victors cancer... Kinda
I assume funded Dale and his wifes research probaly helped robert and tina the same way i assume but i dont recall them saying. Actually maybe robert and tina funded Dale and his wifes research.. Hmm if i woulda binged this i woulda remembered these thinga

Wonder what Tina is gonna do when she finds out Jonah(i assume) killer her daughter. She went against him to save her cheating husband so she aint that far gone.

Also they all think they are saving the world by unearthing some limiltess clean enery source burried down there so theres that motivation on top of whatever gifts they were given.

[Immortal Weapon]

I wasn't speaking generally. In this case, it absolutely does. The Pride went from West Coast's most badass villains, so powerful that nobody even knew they existed and that no hero would stand up to them, to a bunch of corrupt, rich schlubs who can't even get their **** together. It makes for better drama in the show, as you get all the little power plays and innuendos and their abject fear of Jonah to play with. It absolutely makes them stronger characters. But it makes them terrible, terrible villains.

And to the next poster's point, it can't make the conflict with the heroes stronger when the focus has utterly diminished the heroes. It just makes EVERYBODY look terrible. This is a show about spoiled, stupid, people being spoiled, stupid and selfish. Again, no an un-entertaining program, just a terrible adaptation of The Runaways.

This version of the Pride ain't villains. They are people who got in over their heads when a stranger gave them easy success and has held them hostage for 15 years.

[XPac]

I wasn't speaking generally. In this case, it absolutely does. The Pride went from West Coast's most badass villains, so powerful that nobody even knew they existed and that no hero would stand up to them, to a bunch of corrupt, rich schlubs who can't even get their **** together. It makes for better drama in the show, as you get all the little power plays and innuendos and their abject fear of Jonah to play with. It absolutely makes them stronger characters. But it makes them terrible, terrible villains.

And to the next poster's point, it can't make the conflict with the heroes stronger when the focus has utterly diminished the heroes. It just makes EVERYBODY look terrible. This is a show about spoiled, stupid, people being spoiled, stupid and selfish. Again, no an un-entertaining program, just a terrible adaptation of The Runaways.

Certainly this version is different. They went from IMO fairly 2 dimensional comic book villains (who admittedly more basass) to fleshed out 3 dimensional characters views can actually understand and relate to up to a point. The idea wasn't to showcase how powerful villains they are but rather these characters despite their actions are still parents. Again, this show isn't JUST about the kids... it's about the family. Does that make them terrible villains? IMO no, because it gives me a greater appreciation for the predicament both the parents and kids are in when I can actually see their perspective. To me that often makes the better villains.

It's the big difference between the villains we see on the Net Flicks marvel shows as compared to the villains we see in a lot of the marvel movies (Loki being one of the few exceptions). When the time is actually invested in the villain, like with get with say Kingpin as opposed to say Ronan, you can actually start giving a dam about them.

Does that take up more air time? Sure. But honestly I think its worth it. Because quite honestly the biggest part of the Runaways story is about them and the Pride. IMO at least once the Runaways moved beyond the Pride, the stuff afterwards just seemed less epic and important. The Pride was their BIG story. And if the show moves past the Pride too quickly, I'm not sure what they'll even have the characters do next. So they may as well really make the most out of this portion of their story.

[XPac]

Helped with Victors cancer... Kinda
I assume funded Dale and his wifes research probaly helped robert and tina the same way i assume but i dont recall them saying. Actually maybe robert and tina funded Dale and his wifes research.. Hmm if i woulda binged this i woulda remembered these thinga

Wonder what Tina is gonna do when she finds out Jonah(i assume) killer her daughter. She went against him to save her cheating husband so she aint that far gone.

Also they all think they are saving the world by unearthing some limiltess clean enery source burried down there so theres that motivation on top of whatever gifts they were given.

I think apart from maybe Caroline's parents pretty much all the Pride would aide with their kids against Jonah. Plus the fact that the drilling is going to destroy the city is likely a deal breaker too.

[Cyke]

This version of the Pride ain't villains. They are people who got in over their heads when a stranger gave them easy success and has held them hostage for 15 years.

Agreed, which, if this isn't a real adaptation of the comic, is perfectly fine. I can't judge what an adaptation should look like, but if it's doing its own thing (which the Marvel TV shows can and have done) with only drawing upon things here and there from the books, it needs to do so as a TV show on its own merits. There's a fundamental difference between comics and TV, and a TV show needs to adapt for that.

Daredevil S1 is probably the best example of this. Kingpin is a bit different in the show than in the books, being more grounded and less bombastic. Less of a mustache twirler (that is, if comic Kingpin had one), less of a villain from the start (we only get there gradually) and much more emphasis on his street origins. The show itself adapts several elements to create its own unique story arc. Even though it wasn't a straight up adaptation, it knocked it out of the park. I'm willing to give Runaways the same leeway at this point. Sure, I'd like them to pick up the pace a little bit and it's padded more like soap opera than any other Marvel show, but both sides intrigue me enough to stay onboard.