Theory about the Asgardians

[Skedatz]

While I can see what you're going for, I'm pretty sure the odd inconsistencies are more just inconsistency with continuity than anything else.

[ElliotJA]

Odd how recent stories simultaneously acknowledge the cyclical stuff, i.e. the existence of They Who Sit Above In Shadow, while also contradicting it.

[ElliotJA]

Just read the part where Loki questions TWSAIS and gets them in a huff. Something's occurred to me: Could TWSAIS have created the myth of endless cycles of Ragnarok to weaken the gods, make them believe they were chained to a destiny they could never change?

And if the gods only exist through the stories told of them by man, then what of the people the gods interacted with in the myths? Odysseus, Aeneas, King Arthur? How do they exist?

[Mike_Murdock]

Two explanations for that last part: Obviously, even today, characters are interacting with the gods. The same could be true centuries before. Alternatively, legendary heroes are just as legendary as the gods in those stories and could exist for the same reason.

Not that I subscribe to the theory that the gods only exist because of the stories told about them.

[Sutekh]

Perhaps Ragnarok happened, once, for real, and the 'gods' of later generations are echoes of the originals, sort of squished to fit into those mythic roles that can't go unfilled, because they were so important and integral to the universe. And not just the Norse gods. The Olympians and Heliopolitans have their own origin stories and creation myths and sometimes even end-times, and they can't *all* be right... Unless they can all be right, because they all happened, each in their own cycles, many of which overlapped, because time in the realms of the gods is just totally whack.

[ElliotJA]

Regarding the "gods were born of humanity's stories" notion - isn't that kind of how it goes in EARTH X?

And isn't it generally thought that demonic beings such as Mephisto exist because of man's belief in devils and Hell?

[ElliotJA]

It's also recently been shown that Odin was active on Earth at least a million years ago, WAY before the earliest myths about him, which does not square at all with the "the myths came first, the gods after" theory.

[JudicatorPrime]

I'm still trying to sort out where the Gods fit in with Ewing's interpretation of the origins of everything as detailed in the pages of the Ultimates.

[ElliotJA]

Does the Ultimates contradict the existence of gods?

[Skedatz]

I'm still trying to sort out where the Gods fit in with Ewing's interpretation of the origins of everything as detailed in the pages of the Ultimates.

What might help is copious amounts of alcohol.

[JudicatorPrime]

Does the Ultimates contradict the existence of gods?

Not necessarily a contradiction, but it doesn't indicate where the gods as we know them come into play. In some ways Ewing's creation myth echoes Judeo-Christian concepts in that everything came from one perfect, otherwise altruistic entity. First Firmament was the first sentient omniverse ever. (Note: the First Firmament seems not to be aware of the TOAA at all.) From First Firmament came Aspirants and myriad-colored "Rebel" Celestials. From the Rebel Celestials came other servitors. The Rebel Celestial war with the Aspirants decimated First Firmament and led to the creation of the multiverses.

However, the gods are not mentioned, which contradicts some of the more established creation myths that the gods themselves were the creators of the omniverse. (Obviously, that doesn't apply to Asgardians, since it was established long ago in Marvel canon that they're not "true" gods.) Since there have been 8 iterations of the omniverse, it is possible that the mythological gods themselves were birthed in one of the subsequent omniverses following the collapse of First Firmament. Perhaps the 7th iteration is when they came into being along with Eternity. Galactus has never referenced any of the mythological gods from his omniverse, and none of the gods as far as I know have ever mentioned existing as Galan's contemporary in the 6th iteration or prior to that. I suppose it's possible that the gods were the creations of the Aspirants, just as the Omega Servitors were the creations of the Rebel Celestials. For now, though, it's just one big mystery.

That being said, Ewing's creation myth is told through First Firmament. Whenever the villain speaks, question it.

[ElliotJA]

Okay, so how does stuff like Odin being active on Earth at least a million years ago line up with the idea that the myths told by man come first, and the gods afterward?

[JKtheMac]

It's also recently been shown that Odin was active on Earth at least a million years ago, WAY before the earliest myths about him, which does not square at all with the "the myths came first, the gods after" theory.

Actually that isn't true. The timetable for the mythic genesis of the gods is prior to 1 Million BC and covers this period too. The Marvel timeline has never been simple or at all related to the real world. Remember with times this vague for all we know Odin is walking around after two or three generations of Celestial manipulation.

All of the Atum stuff that happened in the Serpent Crown stories happens well before, and the creation of the pantheons comes from very early proto-humanity. It seems implied that the celestial arrival also told in those Serpent Crown stories, was much later than that.

What I find interesting is that Odin in Legacy, clearly believes he has created the realms. We may see a new explanation for this in upcoming books.

[ElliotJA]

But the earliest myths about Odin and the other gods we know originate only in the last several thousand years or so. Comments made by Loki suggest that it was these myths that gave life to the gods, so they could not have been around before.

Something else to consider is the gods of the Hyborian Age, from around 13,000-9,000 BC. Asgard and Vanaheim were on Earth, and their Aesir and Vanir inhabitants were humans who primarily worshipped Ymir, though some stories have Nordics of this era invoke Woden and Thor. Interestingly, one early issue of Marvel's Conan the Barbarian features a god called Bori, apparently one of the oldest deities of the Hyborians, whose servitors are the Choosers of the Slain, female demigoddesses astride winged horses that come to Earth in the aftermath of battles to take worthy warriors into heaven. Bori sounds very much like Buri, Odin's grandfather and Thor's great-grandfather, while the Choosers strongly resemble the later Valkyries. What could their connection be to the more widely known Asgardians?

[JKtheMac]

But the earliest myths about Odin and the other gods we know originate only in the last several thousand years or so. Comments made by Loki suggest that it was these myths that gave life to the gods, so they could not have been around before.

Something else to consider is the gods of the Hyborian Age, from around 13,000-9,000 BC. Asgard and Vanaheim were on Earth, and their Aesir and Vanir inhabitants were humans who primarily worshipped Ymir, though some stories have Nordics of this era invoke Woden and Thor. Interestingly, one early issue of Marvel's Conan the Barbarian features a god called Bori, apparently one of the oldest deities of the Hyborians, whose servitors are the Choosers of the Slain, female demigoddesses astride winged horses that come to Earth in the aftermath of battles to take worthy warriors into heaven. Bori sounds very much like Buri, Odin's grandfather and Thor's great-grandfather, while the Choosers strongly resemble the later Valkyries. What could their connection be to the more widely known Asgardians?

It really isn't worth worrying about Conan books, they are afterall a licensed property and Marvel don't have the license. The original short stories obviously don't mesh with Marvel timelines, and how gods work in those stories just doesn't work with Marvel. It was all a bit of a fudge.