Theory about the Asgardians

[kilderkin]

Okay, so how does stuff like Odin being active on Earth at least a million years ago line up with the idea that the myths told by man come first, and the gods afterward?

And I'm curious with odins indications that he made midgard

He might be bragging or lying or right or wrong

But iirc he's said it a few times though I won't pretend to recall where

[JudicatorPrime]

God, I hope that they don't try to give Odin credit for creating the Earth. That's just way too much horse crap for me. I would have made Asgardians gods on the same level, if not direct descendants of the Elder Gods. But since they're not, and their origins apparently are extradimensional, let's leave it that way. They're aliens who happened upon terra firma eons ago, likely getting caught up in a war with the Elder Gods and Celestials for all we know in the process. They eventually managed to establish some followers (patronage) amongst primitive mankind, but not being gods in the truest sense, it's not clear how that worship would benefit them, so they remained for the most part in the Asgardian dimension until relatively recently.

As for Odin being on Earth a million years ago, am I the only one who doesn't think that someone is going to retcon all of that crap in the not too distant future? I'm still having a hard time accepting that the Phoenix Force would be on Earth, when a million years ago there were thousands upon thousands of universes filled with vast civilizations of sentient beings. Earth was but a pup. The Earth-centric view of comics is sometimes very annoying. And while we're at it, where are the gods from all of those extraterrestrial civilizations that were around for millions of years before mankind stood upright? I'd like to see Marvel really put some effort into the history of the gods...all gods...instead of doubling down on Odin as the chief god of gods. That aryan-apotheosis shtick has run its course.

[Mike_Murdock]

Midgard itself is Ymir's body, if I'm not mistaken.

[Ascended]

How else do we explain the numerous discrepancies in the backstories of the gods?

Well, whether the Asgardians are "true" gods or just higher dimensional beings who just look like gods from our perspective (is there really a difference?), it's entirely possible that they have a different relationship with time then we do. We experience it one way, but what about people from a few degrees higher and to the left? They may experience different Ragnarok cycles (or just different eras) in a kind of "overlap."

Or they may have a toe over multiversal lines, and experience/remember many versions of themselves. Odin might truly believe he created the universe because, out there in one reality or another, he did.

Loki's assertions that the gods are the product of stories may also be partially true (half-lies being his specialty). We know that the gods had to have predated their religion, but that doesn't mean they weren't influenced by the power of belief. Perhaps they're more susceptible to "labels" than we are. Maybe Odin believes he created the universe because people believed he did. And since these guys are (somewhat) reality benders, if they believe something.....doesnt that make it at least partially true?

[JKtheMac]

I suspect the idea that Odin believes he creates the Nine Realms, including Midgard, is important to the ongoing story Aaron is telling. I don't think he did, and it would be a pretty major retcon, but let's face it, a retcon of some little read books from decades ago. But Legacy very clearly has Odin mention he created the realms, and I doubt that is a throwaway line.

Norse myths assert this to be true, so why not Marvel's Odin. But, if we count the events of Jurgen's run, Odin was also a member of a council of other deities credited with creating the world. That would at least imply the truth is less simple.

[JKtheMac]

Midgard itself is Ymir's body, if I'm not mistaken.

Which mythologically allows Odin to have refashioned reality rather than creating things.

[ElliotJA]

It really isn't worth worrying about Conan books, they are afterall a licensed property and Marvel don't have the license. The original short stories obviously don't mesh with Marvel timelines, and how gods work in those stories just doesn't work with Marvel. It was all a bit of a fudge.

Marvel can't directly mention anything from the Conan stuff now, but characters from those stories did show up in the present and interact with modern characters; it's still part of the Marvel universe's prehistory, still canon. And actually, characters and events from those books are still referenced at times in official Marvel guidebooks.

[JKtheMac]

Marvel can't directly mention anything from the Conan stuff now, but characters from those stories did show up in the present and interact with modern characters; it's still part of the Marvel universe's prehistory, still canon. And actually, characters and events from those books are still referenced at times in official Marvel guidebooks.

Official Marvel Guidebooks frequently cite things that are wrong, have been retconned or are just papering over cracks. But the point is the Conan books are based on published books and those books have nothing whatsoever to do with Marvel. They had a detailed mythology and prehistory, that again can't be reconciled with the Marvel Timeline. To acknowledged this and other stories that just don't quite fit, from an era where continuity was even less considered than it is today, we now have Weirdworld. Just about anything can be dumped there and explained away.

I always find this idea that once Marvel had everything straight, but recently writers have been messing with it as quaint, if not naive. They were never particularly bothered until the eighties. I wish people were less bothered now.

[Mike_Murdock]

Kulan Gath appeared in Uncanny X-Men 190, which is firmly in the 80s (when they cared about continuity), so Conan is a lot more ambiguous than you're giving credit.

[kilderkin]

God, I hope that they don't try to give Odin credit for creating the Earth. That's just way too much horse crap for me. I would have made Asgardians gods on the same level, if not direct descendants of the Elder Gods. But since they're not, and their origins apparently are extradimensional, let's leave it that way. They're aliens who happened upon terra firma eons ago, likely getting caught up in a war with the Elder Gods and Celestials for all we know in the process. They eventually managed to establish some followers (patronage) amongst primitive mankind, but not being gods in the truest sense, it's not clear how that worship would benefit them, so they remained for the most part in the Asgardian dimension until relatively recently.

As for Odin being on Earth a million years ago, am I the only one who doesn't think that someone is going to retcon all of that crap in the not too distant future? I'm still having a hard time accepting that the Phoenix Force would be on Earth, when a million years ago there were thousands upon thousands of universes filled with vast civilizations of sentient beings. Earth was but a pup. The Earth-centric view of comics is sometimes very annoying. And while we're at it, where are the gods from all of those extraterrestrial civilizations that were around for millions of years before mankind stood upright? I'd like to see Marvel really put some effort into the history of the gods...all gods...instead of doubling down on Odin as the chief god of gods. That aryan-apotheosis shtick has run its course.

Given iirc that the gods all decent from the demiurge in one form or another, agar via the odin force (or whichever skyfather it's named for) Olympians from the promethium flame as examples, and that they are naturally magical, whilst they are extra dimensional and not of Earth perhaps, they are more than just extraterrestrial like say the keep or shiar

At least many accounts suggest so

I was thinking about the myths that link earth's creation to odin, which as I recall he has mentioned (in legacy in passing I think)

There's at least some contradiction considering the number of pantheons

[vitruvian]

Marvel can't directly mention anything from the Conan stuff now, but characters from those stories did show up in the present and interact with modern characters; it's still part of the Marvel universe's prehistory, still canon. And actually, characters and events from those books are still referenced at times in official Marvel guidebooks.

Yeah, the MU still has Kulan Gath and Set the Elder God and a bunch of stuff like that incorporated.

[JKtheMac]

When a company have a licensed property they often make up characters or incorporate characters from other places that can still be used later, even when the licence has expired. Using them later is very different to making use of the Continent of Thuria or keeping the Hyborian Age on your official timeline.

Even if Marvel were able to assert the rights through public domain they would still be able to argue that the gods of that period were a separate pantheon and that the names just happened to line up. Nothing about Conan lore would contradict the pantheon's creation as detailed in The Serpent Crown, if Marvel choose to double down on that origin.

It is worth noting that this origin covers only Earth, and is not necessarily the same in every alternate universe.

There is of course plenty of scope for an inventive writer to rewrite everything to better suit a modern perspective.

Let's face it Kirby dabbled with this stuff over and over. We shouldn't see anything in comics as sacred, as that would dishonour the creative spirit brought to it by his legacy.

Look at the bold writing at DC right now for a comparison to how Marvel are approaching Legacy. Both are delving into prehistory, reflecting upon common assumptions and being bold in interpretation. Underlying both is a perhaps unconscious desire to play with Kirby's toybox in this anniversary year.

[ElliotJA]

Spider-Man teamed with Red Sonja in an issue of the original MARVEL TEAM-UP. It was quite plain in that story that the Hyborian Age from which Sonja hails exists in the distant past of Earth-616. For these reasons, and others, I consider the Conan tales adapted by Marvel, as well as Marvel's original Conan material, canon. And so I wonder about the link between the modern Asgardian pantheon and the Hyborian Ymir, Bori, Woden, Thor, Aesir and Vanir (the latter two both human tribes).

[Walter Simonson]

I think the problem you run into is your solution would account for current instances of the gods remembering actions prior their supposed current cycle, but it wouldn't account for instances of this prior to Thor Disassembled.

I think a more accurate answer is that Roy Thomas introduced the concept of the cyclical nature of the gods and then other writers (notably Walter Simonson) decided they didn't like it. Simonson quite deliberately retconned this out (basically saying "why are you believing what a giant floating eyeball is telling you anyway?"), but other writers have still used it. The cycle was useful in the sense that it allowed Ragnarok stories without ending the book, but it's ultimately meaningless. I suppose it explains why we seem to see flashbacks of Odin with one eye when he clearly plucked out his eye after Kirby stopped penciling for the book.

I think the problem you run into is your solution would account for current instances of the gods remembering actions prior their supposed current cycle, but it wouldn't account for instances of this prior to Thor Disassembled.

I think a more accurate answer is that Roy Thomas introduced the concept of the cyclical nature of the gods and then other writers (notably Walter Simonson) decided they didn't like it. Simonson quite deliberately retconned this out (basically saying "why are you believing what a giant floating eyeball is telling you anyway?"), but other writers have still used it. The cycle was useful in the sense that it allowed Ragnarok stories without ending the book, but it's ultimately meaningless. I suppose it explains why we seem to see flashbacks of Odin with one eye when he clearly plucked out his eye after Kirby stopped penciling for the book.

I would like to add two thoughts to this discussion. This is a lot more detailed discussion than I'm capable of handling and I am not a continuity buff. :-) But my thoughts are these.

1. I see there's been some discussion of Ragnarok as a generally repeating storyline in Thor--I feel that the original story about Ragnarok in the Norse poetry is one of the great stories in literature. It's not long. If you haven't read it, check out the poem, Voluspa, in the Elder Edda. There are copyright free translations on the web if you're curious and translations for sale in bookstores as well. My feeling is that the original story is so cool and so inspiring that anybody who writes THOR for any length of time is going to try their hand at their own version of it in some fashion. I did it twice myself in my own run, once with the Surtur Saga and once with Thor's duel with the Midgard Serpent. I would be surprised if future writers of THOR don't take a crack at a Ragnarok-inspired story if they're on the book long enough. This isn't about continuity or what's gone before; it's just that it is too cool a story not to try one's hand at, continuity notwithstanding. :-)

2. I didn't retcon Roy's story of the Odin's origin out of continuity if you read what I actually wrote. I'm pretty careful about stuff like that. I'm not saying I've never retconned anything somewhere over the years, but I don't remember doing it. In THOR 355, Tiwaz (actually Thor's great-grandfather) tells Thor a story in an effort to help Thor reconcile his own feelings at the loss of his father. I'd already done a story about the origin of the Odin Power so Tiwaz's tale was set up to some extent. It was my story so naturally, I stacked the deck some in my own favor. Sue me. :-) But in his telling, Tiwaz does suggest that the Eyeball was a hostile witness; as I recall, the Eyeball did have a grudge of some sort. But although Tiwaz does suggest his own preference between the two versions, he never denies the earlier version. That's a deliberate choice. As far as I'm concerned, readers are absolutely free to prefer the version they like best.

Best regards/Walter

[Mike_Murdock]

Holy crap, I feel so honored!

That's sort of what I did meant by the retcon. It isn't a true retcon in that sense, but it was still a reveal of "what you thought you knew from that previous story might not be true." To me, this is the best way to do it: a change that doesn't definitively answer it but lets you decide which one to believe.