Theory about the Asgardians

[Ascended]

I would like to add two thoughts to this discussion. This is a lot more detailed discussion than I'm capable of handling and I am not a continuity buff. :-) But my thoughts are these.

Best regards/Walter

Welcome to the forums, new guy.

[Walter Simonson]

Welcome to the forums, new guy.

I do drift by occasionally, but not often.

[mace11]

Spider-Man teamed with Red Sonja in an issue of the original MARVEL TEAM-UP. It was quite plain in that story that the Hyborian Age from which Sonja hails exists in the distant past of Earth-616. For these reasons, and others, I consider the Conan tales adapted by Marvel, as well as Marvel's original Conan material, canon. And so I wonder about the link between the modern Asgardian pantheon and the Hyborian Ymir, Bori, Woden, Thor, Aesir and Vanir (the latter two both human tribes).

Not canon anymore plus the conan and red sonja stories has been rebooted.So red sonja existed in marvel like conan but does not exist anymore.Think how they change ironman original stories.Time shifting etc..The ultimate had a issue about this.

[Ascended]

I do drift by occasionally, but not often.

Always nice to see a pro, especially one of your caliber, drop by the forums.

[Walter Simonson]

Welcome to the forums, new guy.

Yeah, I've never understand that. I've been on the forums and leaving replies (albeit sporadically) for years. Maybe it's my youthful enthusiasm.

[Ascended]

Yeah, I've never understand that. I've been on the forums and leaving replies (albeit sporadically) for years. Maybe it's my youthful enthusiasm.

Actually, it was your post-count. I figured you either didn't post often, or you just joined.

[JudicatorPrime]

Actually, it was your post-count. I figured you either didn't post often, or you just joined.

Note his join date. You were almost twins.

[JKtheMac]

2. I didn't retcon Roy's story of the Odin's origin out of continuity if you read what I actually wrote. I'm pretty careful about stuff like that. I'm not saying I've never retconned anything somewhere over the years, but I don't remember doing it. In THOR 355, Tiwaz (actually Thor's great-grandfather) tells Thor a story in an effort to help Thor reconcile his own feelings at the loss of his father. I'd already done a story about the origin of the Odin Power so Tiwaz's tale was set up to some extent. It was my story so naturally, I stacked the deck some in my own favor. Sue me. :-) But in his telling, Tiwaz does suggest that the Eyeball was a hostile witness; as I recall, the Eyeball did have a grudge of some sort. But although Tiwaz does suggest his own preference between the two versions, he never denies the earlier version. That's a deliberate choice. As far as I'm concerned, readers are absolutely free to prefer the version they like best.

Best regards/Walter

Thanks for commenting on this topic, it is always interesting to hear how a writer thinks about these things.

I think the last point you make here is an important consideration that usually goes uncommented on. Many writers try to find ways to shift the focus of the story without totally changing things and leaving things interpretive. Rather than clearly stating something maybe a character will tell the story, or a different interpretation will be put on events from a specific character's point of view.

The whole Ragnarok cycle idea is one of those things. It is usually used with a light touch. Suggesting detail and specificity without really doing that. It's like an elaborate hand-waving. As somebody that loves noticing differences in approach I tend to think of all of these things as retcons, but I don't use that term in a negative sense. I always appreciate when a writer is subtle and suggests things can be interpreted both ways.

I am often more frustrated by the kind of writer that wants everything tidied up. All the pieces in a row with no room for interpretation. This is mercifully rare in comics, probably because it is increasingly difficult to do this as the events accumulate.

[ElliotJA]

(Incidentally, Marvel once did a Thor Annual where Thor went back to the Trojan War and met Odysseus and a few other characters from that era.

And is Gilgamesh who recently appeared in Hercules the same as the Eternal Forgotten One?

[GodThor]

(Obviously, that doesn't apply to Asgardians, since it was established long ago in Marvel canon that they're not "true" gods.)

that's... disturbing.

I remember all Gods being called aliens (Olympians, Egyptians etc) and were not believed to be Gods.

similar like MCU.

but they are in the comics.

God Bomb further confirms that.

[GodThor]

It's been noted that flashbacks to the pasts of the current iteration of Asgardian gods are frequently inconsistent. It has also long been known that there have actually been many different cycles of existence for the Asgardians, all ending in Ragnarok, after which they are reborn with new histories, all orchestrated by Those Who Sit Above In Shadow. A theory I have developed is that, after Thor broke the cycle and then resurrected the gods, he did not just bring back the most recent cycle, but all prior cycles, so in effect the current gods are amalgamations of all their past selves blurred into one. This is how they remember all their different pasts as though they happened to them.

Also, I'm wondering if, while the past cycles were sequential in their own dimension, they may have overlapped slightly on ancient Earth, so different versions of characters like Thor were active at the same time. This is what I think the case is with stories like AGES OF THUNDER, which depict the activities of past cycles of Asgard, but their interactions with Earth appear to take place at times when the current cycle should have been around.

well, Thor speaks that he is older than humanity and all and that he is eons of years old.

we know that he is a few thousand years old.

the only reason I can think of he speaks like that is because he remembers his past lives.

[Mike_Murdock]

(Incidentally, Marvel once did a Thor Annual where Thor went back to the Trojan War and met Odysseus and a few other characters from that era.

And is Gilgamesh who recently appeared in Hercules the same as the Eternal Forgotten One?

He's supposed to be. It kind of bothers me because one of the keys of the Epic of Gilgamesh is that Gilgamesh fights against aging and dying the entire story but is unsuccessful. So Marvel turns around and makes him functionally immortal. Makes me think that, maybe, they didn't read the story before doing that.

That being said, I recently thought of a fun idea for a Marvel Epic of Gilgamesh story. It would involve a young version of the Forgotten One (as Gilgamesh), but Enkidu would be the Hulk accidentally sent back in time. It would basically be a Hulk/Gilgamesh buddy story but otherwise be an adaptation of the Sumerian epic.

[JudicatorPrime]

that's... disturbing.

I remember all Gods being called aliens (Olympians, Egyptians etc) and were not believed to be Gods.

similar like MCU.

but they are in the comics.

God Bomb further confirms that.

I think the only certainty is that writers will continue to toss a wrench into whatever we think is canon, especially if they have a specific narrative in mind. When you consider how old the Marvel multiverse is supposed to be -- to say nothing of the various iterations of the multiverse that predate the current one -- it naturally makes sense that the origins of all of the gods is subject to reinterpretation.

[JKtheMac]

I think the only certainty is that writers will continue to toss a wrench into whatever we think is canon, especially if they have a specific narrative in mind. When you consider how old the Marvel multiverse is supposed to be -- to say nothing of the various iterations of the multiverse that predate the current one -- it naturally makes sense that the origins of all of the gods is subject to reinterpretation.

‘Toss a wrench in’ seems a very glass-half-full way of looking at things. There is an imperative on the writers to keep telling stories. The stories have to be new and interesting to each new generation in an evolving world. We can celebrate the diversity of story and embrace the fluid nature of continuity, or we can fight it.

Forcing continuity into an unnatural rigid structure is the problem not the solution. That’s on the glass-half-full readers not the writers, who are just doing what storytellers have always done.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

A theory I have developed is that, after Thor broke the cycle and then resurrected the gods, he did not just bring back the most recent cycle, but all prior cycles, so in effect the current gods are amalgamations of all their past selves blurred into one. This is how they remember all their different pasts as though they happened to them.

That works. Marvel comics did this with the comicbook character Tony Stark. When said comicbook character returned to the 616 Marvel Earth all his past selves blurred into one. Past selves being:

1. 616 Tony
2. Teen Tony
3. Heroes Reborn Tony

This is how Heroes Return Tony remembers all his different pasts as though it happened to him.