September Sales Breakdown

[Prof. Warren]

late to the party but comicbeat puts this stuff together pretty often.

the take away from the august data is that marvel sells more titles that fewer people are buying than DC.

http://www.comicsbeat.com/dc-vs-marv...ones-metaphor/

they are aggregating a market dominance by sheer number of titles and a higher price for mediocre books.

"Mediocre books" like, say, Hawkeye or Iron Fist? So that would mean books that are actually among the best being published today?

Books like that may not be high sellers but they generate critical accolades and have an audience that is devoted to them, an audience that includes readers that are likely not a part of the traditional comic demographic. Every reader counts and it's healthier for Marvel's line to have a variety of books that appeal to as wide an audience as possible.

[rpmaluki]

"Mediocre books" like, say, Hawkeye or Iron Fist? So that would mean books that are actually among the best being published today?

Books like that may not be high sellers but they generate critical accolades and have an audience that is devoted to them, an audience that includes readers that are likely not a part of the traditional comic demographic. Every reader counts and it's healthier for Marvel's line to have a variety of books that appeal to as wide an audience as possible.

Absolutely. I like the books I'm currently reading even though they aren't big sellers. Some are amongst the best written.

[Coin Biter]

That's a hilarious way to put it - "choosing not to maximize profit." It makes it sound like they're doing this on behalf of the readers.

The reality, of course, is that DC has tried this in the past - selling their line, or at least the vast majority of it, below the industry standard as a means to draw customers away from their competitors, chiefly being Marvel of course.

The hope was that once readers had sampled DC and migrated over to them that they could then raise the prices back and hold on to that new readership. That didn't work out. Once they raised their prices back to the norm a ways into New52, the majority of the new readers jumped ship.

Given that, you'd think that DC would not want to use that dead end tactic again but here we are. Only now it's much worse for DC. They've held on to the $2.99 price point on most of their titles for an extended time now but yet the attrition is still there. You've got Batman as the sole hold out to that but yet while selling as much Batman as they do looks like a big deal, the fact is that it's being sold at 25% under the industry norm. Would Batman still be selling 90 or 100K if it was at $3.99? No.

More importantly, all their other $2.99 titles - the ones that now sell on par or less than Marvel's $3.99 books - would take an enormous hit. You'd be looking at a total collapse of DC. Titles like Green Arrow and both Green Lantern books are already towards the bottom of Diamond's Top 100 Books at $2.99. If DC puts the price up on those, forget it. It'd be like an elevator plummeting to the bottom of the shaft. DC knows this. If they thought they could go back to the industry norm on their books and be able to hold on to readers, they'd do it in a heartbeat. But they know they'll be screwed.

So now they're fu*ked either way. At $2.99 they're still losing readers. Or at least not gaining enough to make up the difference. But if they go up in price, they'll really start shedding readers, likely to the point where their whole line will crater.

Not a smart strategy. It was dumb when they did it previously. It's even dumber now.

Since we don’t know what DC’s profits are, what Marvel’s profits are, what digital sales amount to, what profits their corporate masters deem to be acceptable, it seems more than a little presumptuous to label their strategy as “dumb”.

I’ll stick with what I, personally, know:

1. I am happy with DC’s lower price point on comics, which means I will buy them on the week that they come out. It may not be done for my personal “advantage”, but it seems self-evidently preferable

2. I am happy with Marvel’s frequent sales on comixology and discounted digital sales on amazon, and therefore will buy their low-priced digital sales, but will not buy their comics as they come out, as they are priced at a point which is excessive for my budget

[ospfwildcard]

Yep which last time they did that, we had the comic collapse of the 90s.

except in this case only marvel is mirroring the 90's not the whole industry.

Do Marvel's books sell less because they're mediocre or because they have more of them at a higher price?

that's really a hard question to answer definitively. i just pick mediocrity because all the titles i have removed from my hold list were due to crappy written books not the price. besides, i get 20% off the cover price of comics if its on my hold and off the shelf if you have a hold list so its not like im buying them at 3.99$ a pop. who does that?

and i dont have a problem buying everything that Valiant produces for 3.99$ when they have a full plate of offerings available.

not to mention a lot of people didnt have a problem buying marvel legacy previews issues at 6.99 was it or that spider-man for 10$ last year.

[Mike_Murdock]

that's really a hard question to answer definitively.

But your claim was phrased in a very definitive way.

and i dont have a problem buying everything that Valiant produces for 3.99$ when they have a full plate of offerings available.

What are Valiant's numbers relative to Marvel? How many books a month do they produce?

not to mention a lot of people didnt have a problem buying marvel legacy previews issues at 6.99 was it or that spider-man for 10$ last year.

Sure, but Marvel's pretty good at convincing people that special issues (with far more pages) are worth spending more for. I think both of us agree that, if all of their books were $6, the sales would drop.

[ospfwildcard]

But your claim was phrased in a very definitive way.



What are Valiant's numbers relative to Marvel? How many books a month do they produce?



Sure, but Marvel's pretty good at convincing people that special issues (with far more pages) are worth spending more for. I think both of us agree that, if all of their books were $6, the sales would drop.

its definitive to me because i know why i drop books by marvel and it has nothing to do with price. i also understand i am not the market.


i only use valiant to show that price has nothing to do with it because i buy everything, even Faith, from them. and while not a perfect 1:1 ratio of titles if it was a price issue i would scale back all the books i would buy by every company which is not the case because i add more books than subtract. and most of the subtraction has been with marvel because of shoddy mediocre stories.

there is no way to definitely determine if its price or mediocre books without doing some poll of 1000 people or more.

marvel has a good marketing department. they conned stores to order almost 300k in that previews book called Legacy. and if my LCS is a small representation there will be a quite a few in the dollar bins or sold at an extreme discount. it was a putrid story and showed me its all smoke and mirrors and nothing is changing but paint job.

"Mediocre books" like, say, Hawkeye or Iron Fist? So that would mean books that are actually among the best being published today?

Books like that may not be high sellers but they generate critical accolades and have an audience that is devoted to them, an audience that includes readers that are likely not a part of the traditional comic demographic. Every reader counts and it's healthier for Marvel's line to have a variety of books that appeal to as wide an audience as possible.

i think there are some top sellers that are mediocre and some bottom sellers that are not. you are attempting to read between the lines in my comment and attribute a position that i do not hold. but unfortunately you assumed.

[Prof. Warren]

marvel has a good marketing department. they conned stores to order almost 300k in that previews book called Legacy. and if my LCS is a small representation there will be a quite a few in the dollar bins or sold at an extreme discount.

Ah, the old favorite - anecdotal evidence.

"I saw a bunch of unsold copies of _________________ at my LCS. It must be a failure!"

I see lots of unsold copies of Metal at all the LCS I visit. I'm not going to claim it's a failure because of that.

[ospfwildcard]

Ah, the old favorite - anecdotal evidence.

"I saw a bunch of unsold copies of _________________ at my LCS. It must be a failure!"

I see lots of unsold copies of Metal at all the LCS I visit. I'm not going to claim it's a failure because of that.

actually that is not what i said nor did i suggest it was a failure. my exact comment was "marvel has a good marketing department. they conned stores to order almost 300k in that previews book called Legacy. and if my LCS is a small representation there will be a quite a few in the dollar bins or sold at an extreme discount. it was a putrid story and showed me its all smoke and mirrors and nothing is changing but paint job." meaning it wasn't worth 6.99$

no where did i say it was a failure. just there would be many many unsold copies of a really really bad story. now would you like to comment on my exact statement or no or continue to believe i said something which i did not?

[TheFerg714]

That's a hilarious way to put it - "choosing not to maximize profit." It makes it sound like they're doing this on behalf of the readers.

I think their doing it on behalf of the industry, as a whole.

The hope was that once readers had sampled DC and migrated over to them that they could then raise the prices back and hold on to that new readership. That didn't work out. Once they raised their prices back to the norm a ways into New52, the majority of the new readers jumped ship.

The only titles that go to $4 are the monthlies. I don't think DC has any reason to change the price of the biweeklies.

Only now it's much worse for DC. They've held on to the $2.99 price point on most of their titles for an extended time now but yet the attrition is still there.

It's not near as bad as Marvel's $3.99 priced ongoings, and looking at the attrition of Marvel's mega-events shows that DC's got a lot more restraint.

You've got Batman as the sole hold out to that but yet while selling as much Batman as they do looks like a big deal,

Okay.. it's going to take a second to break down how silly this statement is...
1) It is a big deal, compared to everything else. Batman may be the only title selling 100k every month, but I don't get how you can use this as an argument when Marvel's staple, Amazing Spider-Man, is only selling 60k. I'd say that DC/Batman is at least doing something right.
2) # of DC ongoings selling more than 50k: 11. # of Marvel ongoings selling more than 50k: 3. DC should be commended for pumping up those numbers, even with a smaller price point. I'll use the argument you always use: If Marvel could do that, they would be.
3) # of DC ongoings selling less than 20k: 6. # of Marvel ongoings selling less than 20k: 25 That's 13% vs. 42 %.

the fact is that it's being sold at 25% under the industry norm.

Who says the industry standard is $4? That's what Marvel wants us to think it is, but honestly, $4 is kind of ridiculous for 10-15 minutes of entertainment. Three dollars, every two weeks (especially in lower price of living cities) is much more palatable to some people. DC's making plenty of money off of $3 every two weeks, no reason to think otherwise. Their numbers are totally comparable to Marvel's with less issues per month.

Would Batman still be selling 90 or 100K if it was at $3.99? No.

New 52 Batman regularly sold 100k every month. Nice try.

"Mediocre books" like, say, Hawkeye or Iron Fist? So that would mean books that are actually among the best being published today?

Books like that may not be high sellers but they generate critical accolades and have an audience that is devoted to them, an audience that includes readers that are likely not a part of the traditional comic demographic. Every reader counts and it's healthier for Marvel's line to have a variety of books that appeal to as wide an audience as possible.

And that's the big difference between Marvel and DC. In order to find high-quality Marvel books you've really gotta search for the Black Bolt's and the Iron Fist's. With DC, they try to focus on giving their major characters the most high quality writers and artists, as well as the tiny experimental books. Who's talking about Amazing Spider-Man, X-Men, and Avengers? Maybe a few people, but at DC the best books are right up in your face like Superman, Action Comics, Batman, and Justice League.
Not to mention, DC's events are significantly better than Marvel's.

I see lots of unsold copies of Metal at all the LCS I visit. I'm not going to claim it's a failure because of that.

Yes, this is anecdotal, but there's still copies left on the shelf of all three comic stores in Omaha. Guess how many copies of Rebirth #1 were left on the Saturday following it's release.
I have no problem claiming that it's a failure in storytelling though. It sucked and ospfwildcard is right when he calls it a previews magazine, because that's all it was.

and i dont have a problem buying everything that Valiant produces for 3.99$ when they have a full plate of offerings available.

This. So much this. Valiant has grabbed me by the throat and forced me to buy (at least the first issue) everything they publish by simply making good comics. They've gained my trust, so therefore I will give everything they do a chance. That's not to say that literally everything they produce is great, but the vast majority is, and that's why they're the company getting most of my money.
DC's killing it right now, and definitely getting a lot of my money as well, but Marvel lost me a long time ago. I just don't trust them to make quality stories. Everything I tried to follow, or had been following was either bland or simply not good enough to warrant another buy when there's plenty of other quality comics.
As much as some people don't want to admit it, quality is a factor in sales. Quality is the reason X-O Manowar #1 landed in the top 10 and Secret Weapons #1 became the highest selling indie mini-series of 2017. Quality and trust is the reason that Valiant's sales stay relatively stable, compared to the rest of the indie companies.
When Slott just will not leave Spider-Man, Bendis drives X-Men, Guardians, and Iron Man in the ground, and literally every event is underwhelming (if not, pure crap), people will stop reading Marvel. This has been shown in the numbers, and specifically the Comixology charts the last couple of weeks.
And on a more personal note, the few Marvel titles I used to collect voraciously (Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate in general, and Hawkeye) all went down the s***ter.

[Prof. Warren]

I think their doing it on behalf of the industry, as a whole.

No.

The only titles that go to $4 are the monthlies. I don't think DC has any reason to change the price of the biweeklies.

The reason would be to make more money and increase their earnings. But they can't.

It's not near as bad as Marvel's $3.99 priced ongoings, and looking at the attrition of Marvel's mega-events shows that DC's got a lot more restraint.

There isn't much actual attrition at Marvel. You've got titles, like Old Man Logan, Spider-Man and Mighty Thor which have held steady numbers for a long time. And then you've got a title like ASM: Renew Your Vows that seems to be gaining readers.

Okay.. it's going to take a second to break down how silly this statement is...
1) It is a big deal, compared to everything else. Batman may be the only title selling 100k every month, but I don't get how you can use this as an argument when Marvel's staple, Amazing Spider-Man, is only selling 60k. I'd say that DC/Batman is at least doing something right.
2) # of DC ongoings selling more than 50k: 11. # of Marvel ongoings selling more than 50k: 3. DC should be commended for pumping up those numbers, even with a smaller price point. I'll use the argument you always use: If Marvel could do that, they would be.
3) # of DC ongoings selling less than 20k: 6. # of Marvel ongoings selling less than 20k: 25 That's 13% vs. 42 %.

1) Batman sells at 25% below the industry standard. At a dollar less than most other issues, it has to sell more to make up the difference. DC only wishes that the rest of their line could do the same.
2) Again, selling at a lower price point. If you look at the dollar rankings over at Comichron, those Diamond rankings look a lot less impressive. And Marvel could sell their books in those same numbers at $2.99. But they know it's a bad move to set that lower price point.
3) See #2. Also, http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...7/2017-09.html

Who says the industry standard is $4? That's what Marvel wants us to think it is, but honestly, $4 is kind of ridiculous for 10-15 minutes of entertainment. Three dollars, every two weeks (especially in lower price of living cities) is much more palatable to some people. DC's making plenty of money off of $3 every two weeks, no reason to think otherwise. Their numbers are totally comparable to Marvel's with less issues per month.

If they were actually comparable, DC would be #1 more often.

New 52 Batman regularly sold 100k every month. Nice try.

That was a few years ago when more titles sold more in general. Also, it came out once a month then, not twice. If DC thought they could get the same numbers and bring the price up to $3.99 they would.

And that's the big difference between Marvel and DC. In order to find high-quality Marvel books you've really gotta search for the Black Bolt's and the Iron Fist's. With DC, they try to focus on giving their major characters the most high quality writers and artists, as well as the tiny experimental books. Who's talking about Amazing Spider-Man, X-Men, and Avengers? Maybe a few people, but at DC the best books are right up in your face like Superman, Action Comics, Batman, and Justice League. Not to mention, DC's events are significantly better than Marvel's.

That would be entirely subjective.

And "high-quality" is also subjective. Fans of Mighty Thor, ASM, Astonishing X-Men, Old Man Logan and so on would say you don't have to look hard to find quality titles.

Yes, this is anecdotal, but there's still copies left on the shelf of all three comic stores in Omaha. Guess how many copies of Rebirth #1 were left on the Saturday following it's release.

Anecdotal evidence is garbage. There's a stack of Metal issues as long as my forearm at every comic shop I've been in this past week. I won't use that as "proof" of anything because it isn't.

DC's killing it right now, and definitely getting a lot of my money as well, but Marvel lost me a long time ago. I just don't trust them to make quality stories. Everything I tried to follow, or had been following was either bland or simply not good enough to warrant another buy when there's plenty of other quality comics. As much as some people don't want to admit it, quality is a factor in sales. Quality is the reason X-O Manowar #1 landed in the top 10 and Secret Weapons #1 became the highest selling indie mini-series of 2017. Quality and trust is the reason that Valiant's sales stay relatively stable, compared to the rest of the indie companies. When Slott just will not leave Spider-Man, Bendis drives X-Men, Guardians, and Iron Man in the ground, and literally every event is underwhelming (if not, pure crap), people will stop reading Marvel. This has been shown in the numbers, and specifically the Comixology charts the last couple of weeks.
And on a more personal note, the few Marvel titles I used to collect voraciously (Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate in general, and Hawkeye) all went down the s***ter.

If Marvel lost you "a long time ago," why bother commenting on their books? Spend your time hyping Valiant or DC if that's what you like. You might encourage more people to give those books a shot.

I used to be a huge DC fan. I haven't been one for years. But it'd be stupid for me to spend my time starting threads on the DC boards talking about everything I think DC is doing wrong. Mostly because I don't care. I stopped reading the books, save for the occasional sampling here and there. If other people like them, great. I accept that they're just not for me anymore.

I wish more people who seem to spend their entire waking life crying about how Marvel isn't tailoring their line to their tastes and using limited sales data to try to prove that Marvel needs to start listening to them would adopt the same attitude.

[crimsonspider89]

Which I have. I haven't bought a Marvel title in a long time. And used to spend like 40 a week on them.

[JasonTodd428]

I have actually quit buying Marvel books twice in my lifetime and I haven't looked back since the second time I dropped my pull. Now all the money I once spent on Marvel titles goes to Valiant, Lion Forge and other independent publishers who have proven to me that they can write stories that engage me and that I feel are quality stories. Marvel just isn't doing that for me right now sadly. I pretty much feel about Marvel as Prof. Warren feels about DC. I used to be a big Marvel reader but its been years since that's been true. Now I'm more of DC/indy reader.

[WebLurker]

And that's the big difference between Marvel and DC. In order to find high-quality Marvel books you've really gotta search for the Black Bolt's and the Iron Fist's. With DC, they try to focus on giving their major characters the most high quality writers and artists, as well as the tiny experimental books. Who's talking about Amazing Spider-Man, X-Men, and Avengers? Maybe a few people, but at DC the best books are right up in your face like Superman, Action Comics, Batman, and Justice League.
Not to mention, DC's events are significantly better than Marvel's.

That's extremely subjective. I've seen some pretty good stuff from Marvel lately, like their Star Wars line. However, at the end of the day, your opinion that Marvel has very few good books has no relevance to whatever actual success the company is or is not experiencing at the moment (and given that they have been staying on or near the top lately, it's a good bet that they're in better shape than their critics think).

(You're also one of the first people I've met who's considered current Justice League to be one of the best at DC. Fair enough if you think that, but you are unique there.)

[crimsonspider89]

That's extremely subjective. I've seen some pretty good stuff from Marvel lately, like their Star Wars line. However, at the end of the day, your opinion that Marvel has very few good books has no relevance to whatever actual success the company is or is not experiencing at the moment (and given that they have been staying on or near the top lately, it's a good bet that they're in better shape than their critics think).

(You're also one of the first people I've met who's considered current Justice League to be one of the best at DC. Fair enough if you think that, but you are unique there.)

The problem is the Star Wars line is carrying them due to the fact that they have to listen to a creative team of what is okay or not. Same thing we ask from Marvel, in keeping a tight continuity.

[CentralPower]

That's true of ANY product. You will always have customer attrition, whether it's movies, stage, books or whatever. And its always cheaper and easier to retain current customers than to go out and convert new customers.

But at some point you have to get new customers, because your customer attrition is natural and inevitable (like death and loss of income or interest). The problem here is that the current distribution method has a very high barrier to gaining new customer.

This. Absolutely.

Comics are losing customers faster than new ones can be lured in. And, the new customers are not as reliable. This is not a moral question, or a complaint about those damned kids and their movies.

I am ~40. I got in to comics before Burton's "Batman" in 1989. But, I did not find my way to a comic shop until after Burton's "Batman". Before that, I was buying comics at bookstores. That distribution method barely exists, if at all. I also happen to live in an area where it was, and is, possible to walk to the comic shop.

I do not mind walking to the comic shop as an adult. (Frankly, I need the walk.) But, today's kids do not have casual methods of picking up comics. Non-specialty distribution is a thing of the past. The internet makes things easier to find. But, people need to be looking for something first. And, the internet has plenty of other things to look for. (Comic series are not only competing with each other, the comics industry is competing with.....pretty much everything else.)

And, for whatever reason, today's youngsters have shorter attention spans. (I blame MTV and those damned video games.) Ignore the cost of individual issues. (If the kid can get to the store, assume they have disposable income.) But, consider the wait between individual issues. A kid who is in high-school grew up in the era of binge-watching television. My generation was lucky to have a pull-file. (Some stores were reluctant to grant pull-files to kids.) But, today's kids consider a wait between issues/episodes to be unreasonable. (The only consistent growth in comics has been in compilations.)

And, lest anyone think that I am complaining about today's kids and their lack of patience....I binge read. If I watched much TV, I would binge watch. (Today's kids may not know how lucky they are to have readily available DVDs or digital content. But, I do not blame them for taking full advantage of that.)

To make matters worse, when they walk in to a comic shop and see a bunch of old fat-asses (such as myself) talking about how modern comics suck, they have little reason to buy-in. And, when they walk in to the comic shop and see those same old guys (myself included) talking about a movie or TV show, the comics hardly seem necessary.