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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    Which always strikes me as odd that whenever the anti-Slott posts start cropping up everything switches into a "One More Day/Brand New Day" hatefest and basically blaming him for the dissolution of the marriage (which from what I understand is because of his stance on the pro-OMD and various responses to the posters on this board), which again is an odd turn to take when you're originally either just discussing Slott's run on TASM or something else altogether.
    A lot of it comes down to Slott being vocal in his defense of the company's decision, but yeah even then, it's weird the way people have latched on to singling him out as their target for this.

    Part of what I was thinking to is that, in this past decade as well, the way Spider-Man as whole has been marketed has also shifted. The days of the Spider-Man comics just being "Everyman" Peter Parker and his supporting cast is over. It's happened in the comics, with Spider-Man becoming more ingrained with the Avengers, and more Spider-themed spinoff characters (Miles, Spider-Gwen, Silk, etc.) getting launched. You see it in the cartoons, with both Ultimate Spider-Man and the more recent one being a more team/team-up based series. You see it in MCU movie. Slott (and Bendis to a lesser degree) get a lot of heat for the way the "Spider-Man line" has changed. But the thing is, I think that's a thing where even when he steps down, I don't see changing anytime soon.
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  2. #32
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    A lot of it comes down to Slott being vocal in his defense of the company's decision, but yeah even then, it's weird the way people have latched on to singling him out as their target for this.

    Part of what I was thinking to is that, in this past decade as well, the way Spider-Man as whole has been marketed has also shifted. The days of the Spider-Man comics just being "Everyman" Peter Parker and his supporting cast is over. It's happened in the comics, with Spider-Man becoming more ingrained with the Avengers, and more Spider-themed spinoff characters (Miles, Spider-Gwen, Silk, etc.) getting launched. You see it in the cartoons, with both Ultimate Spider-Man and the more recent one being a more team/team-up based series. You see it in MCU movie. Slott (and Bendis to a lesser degree) get a lot of heat for the way the "Spider-Man line" has changed. But the thing is, I think that's a thing where even when he steps down, I don't see changing anytime soon.
    The Hulk books used to have a "Hulk family." Even had an entire animated series using that concept. And now they don't.

    I can see Miles sticking around, but some of these other Spider-themed heroes seem like they have a limited shelf life and that they'll quietly fade into the background in a few years. (It feels like Silk already has.)

  3. #33
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    The Hulk books used to have a "Hulk family." Even had an entire animated series using that concept. And now they don't.

    I can see Miles sticking around, but some of these other Spider-themed heroes seem like they have a limited shelf life and that they'll quietly fade into the background in a few years. (It feels like Silk already has.)
    I mean, you're right, Silk got cancelled and she hasn't shown up in any major role outside of cameos or small guest appearances. Black Cat doesn't even have a book or is being characterized that well but she still appears more then Silk does.

    2099's ended and who knows if we'll ever see Miguel again.

    Anya's still in limbo.

    Scarlet Spider looks like it'll be going the way of 2099.

    A new Spider-Woman book doesn't seem to be on the horizon.

    Past Peter, Miles, and Gwen the only other Spider-Family titles still around and look to still be around in the immediate future are an AU book with Mary Jane Watson and her daughter with Peter and a book starring Eddie Brock Venom (but even that's not doing as hot as it was before).

    And those characters, aside from Miles, are Peter Parker villains or supporting characters.

    Let's not also forget that Marvel in the past used Grim Hunt as an excuse to cut down on the number of Spider-people running around the MU (just ask poor Mattie Franklin).

  4. #34
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    In the context of current discussions, Slott gets more criticism because he's currently in charge of Spider-Man. He'll be discussed more, while JMS' run will compete with attention against other earlier runs, including earlier eras of Slott's own Spider-Man.

    If we're talking about whether JMS was less criticized than Slott at the time, that's a bit more complicated. There may be some selection bias in how we remember arguments in the past, but there was some pushback against JMS online, from people who didn't care for modern storytelling. That was the basis for some of the support for Spider-Girl as a title.

    There are some myths about JMS's run that make it easier to idiolize. There are plenty of readers who defend his preferred One More Day retcon, without realizing it involves most of what they hate (Mephisto's motivations are the same, the marriage is still erased) and has a bigger effect on continuity.
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  5. #35
    Radioactive! Spiderfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post

    First of all, OMD is sore point for a lot of fans, so I think a lot of dislike for the post-OMD era gets blended with dislike for Slott's work, since he has been the main architect of the post-OMD era. Had it been someone else, I think that they still would've been on the hot seat, and I think when Slott passes the pen to someone else, if OMD is still standing, they'll probably get flak for it too.
    I think it helped that Straczynski more or less "sided with the fans" on One More Day, even if that really was his genuine opinion. However, it's understandable that someone in the comicbook industry like Dan Slott who has a dreamjob as a comicbook writer, would not want to talk too poorly regarding the company's decisions (i.e. the people who sign his paycheck) like if you worked at a McDonald's and someone asked you what you thought about their apple pies, you're not going to tell them that you don't like them and that you prefer Burger King's brand over McDonald's. But I get where fans are coming from to an extent regarding Slott's defense of OMD; there is simple agreeing with or just accepting facts for what they are and then there is going above all that into what could be interpreted as sycophancy.

    Secondly, Dan Slott takes more risks and goes beyond the traditional confines of what Spider-Man is, while JMS stayed closer to the rules. The former is bound to generate a lot more controversy, since there are bound to be people who will argue that Slott is not being true to what Spider-Man is or that he doesn't understand the character. Personally, I firmly believe that to be true -- although that can be argued against -- however, I think the point remains that by doing things that had never been done before, you're going to run over some people's toes. Even without OMD on the table, Slott was always going to be a controversial ASM writer.
    Honestly I feel like taking more risks while being eh...risky, is worthwhile in the end as it well accomplish one of two things; 1) take the comic in a new and possibly better direction and 2) making the comic memorable be it tied to good or bad publicity.


    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    I would say as well that is debatable as well because while JMS was writing Amazing Spider-Man there were not as many comic books forums as there were after Dan Slott started writing Spider-Man comics.
    And as comic books forums are many times a echo chamber of negativity so to speak thus it may explain Dan Slott aparently having more critics.
    This. If CBR, Reddit and other comic-book themed forums were the "go to" back in the day then Straczynski would never have heard the end of it.
    Last edited by Spiderfang; 10-11-2017 at 07:08 PM.
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  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    One of the big reasons JMS was able to distance himself from OMD is because Quesada purposefully put himself out there. Quesada was very open about hating the marriage and wanting to remove it. And he didn't say this just before OMD was announced. He had been saying this for years beforehand.

    Couple that with OMD's sequel, OMIT, which did not have JMS working on it in any capacity, but did have Quesada's fingerprints all over it, and it's easy to see how JMS was able to distance himself from OMD.
    That is true, JMS wanted to at least give the marriage a proper send off but Quesada said "No, just say it was because of magic people will not question it" and that really got my blood boiling because if you are going to end it it deserves a proper send off. With Slott there is just no balance between the two aspects of the character and that is what i always enjoyed about Peter because i loved seeing him as a hero and husband but looking at the latest issues is just so depressing for the Parker aspect of him.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Maybe a blanket statement, but in comparison, JMS feels safer than Slott. Most of the stuff you described seems like reasonable extensions of the core mythology. Conversely, I can't see how stuff like Superior, Parker Industries, and Spider-Verse has anything to do with what Spider-Man is, when you get down to the bare essentials. Your milage may vary, of course.
    Did you get around to reading JMS and Slott's runs?

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    I would say as well that is debatable as well because while JMS was writing Amazing Spider-Man there were not as many comic books forums as there were after Dan Slott started writing Spider-Man comics.
    And as comic books forums are many times a echo chamber of negativity so to speak thus it may explain Dan Slott aparently having more critics.
    Yeah, CBR is hardly a full demographic of fans and readers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    It's all a matter of perspective.

    BND started out trying to create new villains for Spidey to fight before bringing back the classics. But once the classics came back, they clearly received the most emphasis. A large part of Slott's run used Doctor Octopus. You can try to put a fresh coat of paint on it, but it doesn't get more traditional than a Spider-Man vs. Doctor Octopus story.

    Conversely, JMS' ASM run was a love story between Peter and MJ. And THAT'S a pretty traditional Spidey story that has been done before as well.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    I think it helped that Straczynski more or less "sided with the fans" on One More Day, even if that really was his genuine opinion. However, it's understandable that someone in the comicbook industry like Dan Slott who has a dreamjob as a comicbook writer, would not want to talk too poorly regarding the company's decisions (i.e. the people who sign his paycheck) like if you worked at a McDonald's and someone asked you what you thought about their apple pies, you're not going to tell them that you don't like them and that you prefer Burger King's brand over McDonald's. But I get where fans are coming from to an extent regarding Slott's defense of OMD; there is simple agreeing with or just accepting facts for what they are and then there is going above all that into what could be interpreted as sycophancy.
    Makes sense. I'm not sure I'd call Slott "sycophantic" though. He does come across as disparaging to the married Spider-Man and fans to prefer that iteration, but, like you said, he does have a job to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    Honestly I feel like taking more risks while being eh...risky, is worthwhile in the end as it well accomplish one of two things; 1) take the comic in a new and possibly better direction and 2) making the comic memorable be it tied to good or bad publicity.
    Fair point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Did you get around to reading JMS and Slott's runs?
    I have seen some. "Seems" safer/riskier was the key word and it's certainly steeped in my biases (I do not like Slott's brand of Spider-Man, as I have been upfront about). I'd want to read a make a full comparison before making a definitive statement. If the ASM Epic Collections go to cover JMS's stuff, I'll get that for sure.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    I edited the title of this thread and want to remind everyone to keep this civil and on point. It is also worth noting that the question of whether Slott even draws more criticism is debatable as JMS wrote the title over a decade ago before all message boards and social media fully took over; also, as has already been pointed out, JMS' most criticized moves were at least partially driven by editorial.
    excellent point. even fan favs like morrison and waid have to navigate floods of hatred online now because...that's just how things are with anonymity + accessibility + herd mentality.
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  10. #40
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    In the context of current discussions, Slott gets more criticism because he's currently in charge of Spider-Man. He'll be discussed more, while JMS' run will compete with attention against other earlier runs, including earlier eras of Slott's own Spider-Man.

    If we're talking about whether JMS was less criticized than Slott at the time, that's a bit more complicated. There may be some selection bias in how we remember arguments in the past, but there was some pushback against JMS online, from people who didn't care for modern storytelling. That was the basis for some of the support for Spider-Girl as a title.

    There are some myths about JMS's run that make it easier to idiolize. There are plenty of readers who defend his preferred One More Day retcon, without realizing it involves most of what they hate (Mephisto's motivations are the same, the marriage is still erased) and has a bigger effect on continuity.
    yeah, even though i wasn't active on boards at that time, even i heard grumbles about totems and powers and things like that which apparently moved spider-man away from his "roots"
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  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    Which always strikes me as odd that whenever the anti-Slott posts start cropping up everything switches into a "One More Day/Brand New Day" hatefest and basically blaming him for the dissolution of the marriage
    According to Wikipedia Slott was involved with One More Day to a degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    The ideas for "One More Day" began to develop almost two years before its release, at one of Marvel's creative summits for creators and editors. Quesada, Straczynski, Brian Michael Bendis, Mark Millar, Jeph Loeb, Tom Brevoort and Axel Alonso developed the concept between them, and Ed Brubaker and Dan Slott added more at the next summit.[3] "One More Day" was announced as the concluding storyline of Straczynski's run on Amazing Spider-Man in early 2007, and Quesada was named as the artist for the storyline. Although Quesada had become more selective in choosing projects to do as an artist since becoming editor-in-chief, he felt compelled to do the art for One More Day because he felt very close to the story, and because since he had been talking about the project for so long, he felt he "needed to put my money where my mouth is."[1]

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeirdSpider View Post
    According to Wikipedia Slott was involved with One More Day to a degree.
    ooooh plot thickens.

    though for a writer who was about to come on board the title, it would make sense that you’d want to be a part of the summit
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SignorMiracolo View Post
    He is very popular. He made AMS the more popular Marvel book
    Star Wars is the most popular Marvel book. ASM is lucky to even still crack the top 20.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 10-12-2017 at 02:05 AM.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member DieHard200904's Avatar
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    He is the current writer and there's way more forums around now to channel if you don't like it.

    JMS said what the fans would want to hear. But I wasn't entirely fond of totems and other matters, come to think of it.

  15. #45
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    I guess I'm in the minority, because I like Slott a LOT as writer on Spider-Man.
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