[Serious question] Why does Dan Slott get more criticism than Straczynski

[Miles To Go]

Yep, beat me to it. I mean, I don't see why the answer gets any more simple than this

Because it's only one of several reasons...fans of his like to make this seem like the "simplest" answer because they themselves are too insecure to deal with the more complex reasons as to why some may think their favorite writer is a bit...well..****

[Somecrazyaussie]

One of the big reasons JMS was able to distance himself from OMD is because Quesada purposefully put himself out there. Quesada was very open about hating the marriage and wanting to remove it. And he didn't say this just before OMD was announced. He had been saying this for years beforehand.

Couple that with OMD's sequel, OMIT, which did not have JMS working on it in any capacity, but did have Quesada's fingerprints all over it, and it's easy to see how JMS was able to distance himself from OMD.

I find it odd that OMD is still standing. The other two "Genies put back in the bottle" have well and truly been let out now that Quesada is no longer calling the shots.

I am not going to knock Dan. Some of his work is enjoyable. Yes, he has had a few misses. Every writer does. However, when compared with JMS, Slott isn't in the same league. Technically, JMS is the better writer. You want to sum up the marriage? Go read ASM (vol 2) #50. That one panel where Peter tells MJ to come home to him. THAT is where JMS excelled as a writer. What about the ASM (vol 2) #36? I live in Australia and reading that issue at the time took me on an emotional rollercoaster that had me feel for the people of New York. It allowed me to mourn alongside them. That was Powerful. Still is now.

[David Walton]

As already elaborated in this thread, people's problems with Slott extend well beyond the fact he's the current writer.

I'm not saying fans don't have specific criticisms for Dan Slott's run.

But the current writer of ASM will always attract the most controversy.

In thirty years, today's kids will be tomorrow's older fans, and they'll be complaining about how ASM has never been the same since Slott left the book. They'll talk about SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN and SPIDER-ISLAND the same way we talk about KRAVEN'S LAST HUNT and The Alien Costume Saga. And they'll say the new guy has disrespected Slott's legacy, in spite of him or her claiming Slott was a huge formative influence.

[MetalWoman]

Because it's only one of several reasons...fans of his like to make this seem like the "simplest" answer because they themselves are too insecure to deal with the more complex reasons as to why some may think their favorite writer is a bit...well..****

The question is not "Why does Dan Slott get any criticism?", obviously he is not a perfect writer, it is "Why does Dan Slott get more criticism than Straczynski?". Considering all the controversial things Straczynski did, Sin's Past, adding magic to Spider-man's origin, revealing Peter's identity, OMD, fan's would be screaming that he had ruined Spider-man forever and was the worst writer ever all over this message board if it was magically transported back to 2008. But because his work is a decade in the past, fans complaints, both the fair and unfair ones, are directed at the current writer instead of him.

Personally I find Straczynski's writing on Spider-man far inferior to Slotts. It ignored almost all of the supporting cast, ignored one of the best rogue's galleries in comics in favor of forgettable new villains, felt overly pretentious to me (something I have found in all of the works of his I have read), added magic to Spider-man's origin which feels totally out of place, and had very little humor.

Edit: And had pacing issues. The Other could have been told in 6 issues. Stretching it out so long had me yelling at the comic to reveal what was in that d**m letter already.

[Miles To Go]

I find it odd that OMD is still standing. The other two "Genies put back in the bottle" have well and truly been let out now that Quesada is no longer calling the shots.

Well, if you ask Slott, there are people above him and people above those people that are keeping the marriage in editorial "lockstep" (a lockstep, mind you, that does not have a hold on Renew Your Vows or the newspaper comics)

[suemorphplus209]

Well, if you ask Slott, there are people above him and people above those people that are keeping the marriage in editorial "lockstep" (a lockstep, mind you, that does not have a hold on Renew Your Vows or the newspaper comics)

It’s as simple as not 616 in either case. LOL.

[suemorphplus209]

I find it odd that OMD is still standing. The other two "Genies put back in the bottle" have well and truly been let out now that Quesada is no longer calling the shots.

I am not going to knock Dan. Some of his work is enjoyable. Yes, he has had a few misses. Every writer does. However, when compared with JMS, Slott isn't in the same league. Technically, JMS is the better writer. You want to sum up the marriage? Go read ASM (vol 2) #50. That one panel where Peter tells MJ to come home to him. THAT is where JMS excelled as a writer. What about the ASM (vol 2) #36? I live in Australia and reading that issue at the time took me on an emotional rollercoaster that had me feel for the people of New York. It allowed me to mourn alongside them. That was Powerful. Still is now.

Well, people bigger than Quesada are behind the decision. Logical explanation

[Miles To Go]

It’s as simple as not 616 in either case. LOL.

Yeah, fair point, though there was a period where the strip ran for a few months with a psudeo-BND set-up, only to then retcon it saying fan demand made them change their mind (though I've heard that the plan was to always revert back to the marriage and it was just Stan's f-you to Marvel, rofl)

[Scott Taylor]

but with the ramones and punk rock in general is where a lot of this "objective" carry on falls apart- the markers for technical ability were a secondary concern, or even the enemy of the entire punk art movement. the quality was about something else

I know, right? J.S. Bach was more prolific than any other classical composer in terms of sheer hours of music composed, and arguably the most technically adept because each piece is carefully constructed at a similar technical level.

But I'd rather listen to Mozart practically every day.

[Rincewind]

Yeah, fair point, though there was a period where the strip ran for a few months with a psudeo-BND set-up, only to then retcon it saying fan demand made them change their mind (though I've heard that the plan was to always revert back to the marriage and it was just Stan's f-you to Marvel, rofl)

I don't think it has ever been the case that the daily comic strip was subject to Marvel Comics editorial oversight. It's pretty much always been Stan Lee's pet project that he had complete control over.

The marriage itself originated from the comic strip plans that Stan had. The only reason the main Spider-Man in the 616 continuity got married was because Jim Shooter wanted to have the comics and strip match up for a PR event.

So it's not really a surprise that the originator of the marriage is sticking with the marriage. And since the strip is still solely under Stan's oversight, he doesn't have to remove the marriage if he doesn't want to.

[Lee]

I'm comparing what I have read and extrapolating the rest from what I know and a variety of opinions. I was thinking out loud, not making a declarative statement (like Spidercide did). If and when I read those runs in full, then I would probably make a declarative statement as to which was the better run (although from what I've seen of Slott, being better than him isn't an esp. high bar to clear.)

I have no interest in which run you find better, that's not what I was responding to. I thought it was weird that you found JMS's run to be safer and closer to the roots of the series.

Maybe a blanket statement, but in comparison, JMS feels safer than Slott. Most of the stuff you described seems like reasonable extensions of the core mythology. Conversely, I can't see how stuff like Superior, Parker Industries, and Spider-Verse has anything to do with what Spider-Man is, when you get down to the bare essentials. Your milage may vary, of course.

Parker Industries is an extension of Peter being a great inventor and scientist, which is something that was established in the very first issue. Superior Spider-Man was about a mind-swap with one of Spider-Man's earliest and most frequent villains, another brilliant scientist who grew up an outcast. The most "out there" story in Slott's run so far was indeed Spider-Verse, which was also the one most rooted in the part of the mythos JMS established.

JMS's take on Spider-Man was quite controversial. Much of it was rooted in the idea that Spider-Man was the product of a magic spider, and had him fighting magical villains and other-worldly monsters. The supporting cast and soap opera aspect of the series was significantly reduced, leaving only Mary Jane and Aunt May with any significant panel time. Since they both knew Peter's secret identity, the angle of him having to juggle a double life disappeared as well. When he did do a soap-opera style storyline, it was about Peter's long dead girlfriend having secretly given birth to rapidly aging ninja assassins out to kill him.

Whilst Slott's run has had numerous "Spider-Man with a twist" style storylines, he has also written a great deal of traditional meat-and-potatoes Spider-Man stories. JMS never really did those kind of traditional stories.

It's strange to come to the conclusion that JMS played it safer. But as you said, you haven't read his run.

[WebLurker]

I have no interest in which run you find better, that's not what I was responding to. I thought it was weird that you found JMS's run to be safer and closer to the roots of the series.

Fair enough.

Parker Industries is an extension of Peter being a great inventor and scientist, which is something that was established in the very first issue.

I think Parker Industries came at the cost of Spidey inherently being one of the everyman superheroes ("friendly neighborhood Spider-Man," after all). While he was really smart and did build things, I don't really think that that was the core of the character, certainly not to the expense of the down-to-earth stuff.

Superior Spider-Man was about a mind-swap with one of Spider-Man's earliest and most frequent villains, another brilliant scientist who grew up an outcast.

Given that I think that Spider-Man is one of the few superheroes who does not work as a legacy character (it's too tied to Peter's personal life, IMHO) and I hated Superior as a story and in execution (even granting the premise, I do not like the writing style), I can't really agree on that point. However, since I cannot look at that series objectively, I also don't really trust my opinions on it (beyond that Spidey is ill-suited for a legacy story like this).

The most "out there" story in Slott's run so far was indeed Spider-Verse, which was also the one most rooted in the part of the mythos JMS established.

As indicated before, I think that Parker Industries and Superior were more out there, however, I think I've seen too little of Spider-Verse to venture any further opinions on that, just that it's not the kind of Spidey story that appeals to me.

JMS's take on Spider-Man was quite controversial. Much of it was rooted in the idea that Spider-Man was the product of a magic spider, and had him fighting magical villains and other-worldly monsters.

I'm not sure I have a problem with different-sourced villains (he does take on other's rogue's galleries a lot, after all). As far as the magic spider, since the exacts of what happened to the spider (radiation, genetic engineering, OZ, magic) change over time, the exacts were never as important as it being a spider that had been messed with somehow. On top of that, the spider is just a plot device for the main setup; this guy finds himself superpowered by random chance and needs to decide what he'll do with this gift and curse.

The supporting cast and soap opera aspect of the series was significantly reduced, leaving only Mary Jane and Aunt May with any significant panel time. Since they both knew Peter's secret identity, the angle of him having to juggle a double life disappeared as well.

Maybe? While I will concede that stripping away the classic supporting cast doesn't do it any favors (which Slott is very guilty of), Mary Jane and Aunt May being around and in the know is, IMHO, a lot closer to classic Spider-Man than Slott's current run. (Also, as a life-long USM fan, this is exactly in my wheelhouse.)

When he did do a soap-opera style storyline, it was about Peter's long dead girlfriend having secretly given birth to rapidly aging ninja assassins out to kill him.

I don't think anyone's arguing that that was JMS's finest hour (although given that I was never on the Gwen bandwagon, I'm probably less bothered by it than others are).

Whilst Slott's run has had numerous "Spider-Man with a twist" style storylines, he has also written a great deal of traditional meat-and-potatoes Spider-Man stories. JMS never really did those kind of traditional stories.

It's strange to come to the conclusion that JMS played it safer. But as you said, you haven't read his run.[/QUOTE]

Maybe "playing it safe" was not the right way to put it. However, I think that saying Slott has shown little understanding of the mythos and writes it chronically OOC was not very polite (and something that can be debated), so I was trying to find a more neutral way to suggest that Slott's run has gotten away from Spidey 101, which might be to some people's liking, but not others and allow for the possibility for the case that Slott is indeed on the right track. Mileage will always vary, of course.

[TheCape]

I always find Slott's run as 80s Spider-Man, but sort of flanderized and turn up to 11. That's my personal problem with him, he lacks balance, he doesn't had a middle ground. I don't particurlary carenfor some of the stuff that JMS, but the heart of the franchise, Spider-Man felt like well, Spider-Man, Peter's voice in Slott just doesn't gibe with any previous version of the characther that i had read about it.
Anyway i don't hate him and think that some people should relax a bit whennit concerns to him, but he has been in this too long and i am tired of his vision.

[Spidercide]

That is difficult to argue. And you misunderstood my point about Ramones vs King Crimson; neither of those bands were very "popular". They each had their fans but neither sold very many records; my point was that more people know and appreciate and are influenced by the Ramones' records today while most musical scholars would point to the King Crimson records as more technically adept.

Not really.

If you examine the art of crafting jokes (set up, suspense punchline etc) in how Big Bang Theory does it vs Community the latter is overtly superior. Big Bang Theory further employs canned laughter to encourage the audience to laugh at what's on screen rather than allowing the scene to speak for itself. It also lacks the same degree of character development, exploration and relies upon well worn sitcom cliches that Community outright subverted or else did something alternatively inventive with. See The bottle episode from Community, the D&D episode, etc.

Popularity just means a lot of people like it, but you can achieve that by appealing to the lowest common denominator. See USM's success as a cartoon vs the Spec cartoon's success which (apart from you know...writing Spider-Man correctly) legitimately had better writing craftsmanship involved than USM. Whereas USM's take on Venom was that he was created literally from Spider-Man's ass and was a generic goop monster that just tried to take over Spider-Man and failed in one episode, Spec's take gave the costume a personality and understandable motive and then used it to explore the darker aspects of Peter's character as well as ultimately making a grand statement about who he is as a person.

See. Character exploration vs generic shallow crisis of the week Spider-Man has to punch whilst doing nothing else for his character. The former is 'easily' better.

As for your original point we're not talking about populairty or influence. We're talking about quality.

As for being an influence that's a matter for time to tell. Indeed Slott's popularity is contentious. His sales have been dropping and even before then they were high not off of the quality of the work but due to the variants, the hype, the sexy story ideas (not their execution) that generated buzz. ASM #700 was always going to sell. Superior was always going to sell. MJ and Iron Man's guest appearences in Power Play and the possibility of acknowledging RYV were always goign to sell, especially when it was a Civil War movie tie-in. But it sure as **** didn't sell better than a random issue in the middle of an inconsequential arc from 10 years before that under JMS' run...which had no variants. I know all sales are down but considering the nature of those two storylines the gap in sales should never have been that steep. Moreover the overall industry is actually healthier now than it was back then because the fallout from the crash was still very much being felt.

I mean **** this thread is actually testament to my counterpoint. JMS gets less flack than Slott does. That at least raises the idea that as a Spider-Man creaotr he is in fact far more popular

[Kevinroc]

I mean **** this thread is actually testament to my counterpoint. JMS gets less flack than Slott does. That at least raises the idea that as a Spider-Man creaotr he is in fact far more popular

JMS is a screenwriter of some renown in Hollywood. I don't think the scales are equally balanced.