Better Than Human: The Northstar Appreciation Thread

[Anduinel]

I'm hoping he's not just a floating figure in the background of a massive group shot...

IIRC, most scripts don't bother naming every character in big group shots. That's typically left up to the artist's discretion. Also, White liking Tweets that mention Northstar about a month back make me think whatever role he has is going to be big enough to be worth mentioning.

[jalsrix]

New X-Book editor Jordan White liked a couple of tweets where people put Northstar forward as an underrated character who should make a return. Are there plans? Let's hope so! Do they involve Guggenheim? Oh please dear lord, no.

A story of a romance between Iceman and Northstar would be great.


Yeah, I know he's married but so was Cyclops. It would make a great story for a possible divorce.

[witchboy]

It's encouraging that he's showing up in something.
As nice as the wedding and all the positivity that went with it, I always knew it was a mistake for JP's long term story. Writers rarely seem to know what to do with a happily partnered/married gay character.

[Anduinel]

It's encouraging that he's showing up in something.
As nice as the wedding and all the positivity that went with it, I always knew it was a mistake for JP's long term story. Writers rarely seem to know what to do with a happily partnered/married gay character.

I'd say the issue with Jean-Paul isn't that he's married. For the most part, writers have always had a hard time dealing with him simply because he's gay - this is something that's been a problem as far back as Mantlo in the 80's literally saying he tried to kill JP off (and did try to permanently write him out when editorial stepped in to nix his plan) because he couldn't think of anything to do with a closeted gay character. It's always come back to the same issue, writers treating his sexuality as the sum of his character instead of bothering to look at him in a larger context. As much as I enjoyed Liu's run on Astonishing, I feel like it was something of an issue even there - once the wedding was over, Northstar really didn't have much to do in the book and never really was given a way to fit in with the larger dynamic of the team.

In terms of Jean-Paul's character, I feel his wedding to Kyle was a good next step in the growth he'd been experiencing since joining the X-Men*, going from the largely resentful, bitter loaner he'd been in Alpha Flight to actually having a cause to believe in again and developing friendships within the team, and finally falling in love with someone willing to say "forever" with him. His lack of presence for the last few years, while frustrating, frankly, isn't outside of normal for his use at Marvel and not something I think can be blamed on his married status. Sadly, Northstar has almost never been a character who's been allowed to be front and center very often. Alpha Flight ended, he got his LS, and then he disappeared from regular use for the better part of a decade. He got a lot of page time the early part of Austen's X-Men tenure, then vanished until the last issues. The angry gay zombie thing happened and was resolved, then again, he was out of circulation for pretty much the entire lead up to the west coast move. He was wallpaper during the Fraction run, getting central roles in only a couple of short stories and one-shots. It wasn't until around/just after Schism, with the new AF series and Liu's Astonishing, that he got major attention again. And after that, he was part of the Amazing X-Men roster, which was cancelled along with all the other X-Books with Secret Wars, and no one's really bothered to pick him up since.

If there's an actual character/circumstance keeping Northstar from the possibility of a more central role, I'd say it's more Iceman and his coming out. I don't mean that as a slam against Bobby, but like I said, writers have always had a hard time with Northstar as a character as opposed to a mouthpiece. He's not the reformed terrorist, he's not the loyal brother, he's not the self-made man who's built his life up from nothing multiple times - he's the gay one. Unless they specifically had something to say about homosexuality, writers usually didn't think to make use of him. Now Iceman fills that niche and has the added bonus of being more of an approachable and recognizable character to boot.

*(As much as I enjoyed Jean-Paul being the voice of discontent in Alpha Flight, I'm much happier with him on the X-Men side of things. There just wasn't any place much left for him to go with the AF crew and it really showed in the 2011 Alpha Flight series; the only place where we got to see something new with JP was his getting to be the closest the story had to a romantic lead with Kyle. All his other relationships were static retreads of his 80's characterization.)

[jalsrix]

It's encouraging that he's showing up in something.
As nice as the wedding and all the positivity that went with it, I always knew it was a mistake for JP's long term story. Writers rarely seem to know what to do with a happily partnered/married gay character.

The marriage was so contrived and forced, I mean Northstar met Kyle for a few panels in the same month and then they got married a few issue later.

Look at Kitty and Colossus, Jean and Cyclops, they only got married after a few decades.

All this was contrived to boost sales because it was the first gay wedding in Marvel.

[Anduinel]

The marriage was so contrived and forced, I mean Northstar met Kyle for a few panels in the same month and then they got married a few issue later.

Kyle first shows up in Uncanny X-Men #509 in 2009. The wedding wasn't until Astonishing X-Men #51, three years and quite more than "a few issues" later.

[lurkerforyears]

I am not a fan of the marriage with Kyle for 2 reasons

I felt it happened, not as the next step of character development of Northstar, but as a way to retire him, similar to PAD marrying Madrox and Layla in the last issues of his run. (Madrox was in limbo since that run ended until death of X, Layla is still in limbo)
Doing that is basically giving a happy ending to a minor character, SO when the fans ask "where is xxxxxx?" the editors answer "he is happily married doing other stuff"
Generally, that kind of being retired ends up badly for those characters. Avalanche was retired working in his San Francisco bar (Avalanche is a character that easily could have been retconned as gay, like Pyro, and his bar could have been explicitely a gay bar, the bartenders looked almost like male strippers) when Remender killed him in Uncanny Avengers, and Madrox was retired living in a farm with Layla when Soule and Lemire killed him for Death of X.

The other reason is relationships between superpowered beings and normal humans generally turn into relationships in which the superhero has to protect the normal human (think Spiderman and Mary Jane or his Aunt), so I prefer superpowered beings dating other superpowered beings, or humans who aren't normal humans-civilians, and I prefer marriages with many years of issues and character development behind them (but that character development may be impossible for an Alpha Flight character since the mid 90s, since they tend to be in limbo)

[jalsrix]

Kyle first shows up in Uncanny X-Men #509 in 2009. The wedding wasn't until Astonishing X-Men #51, three years and quite more than "a few issues" later.

Hardly anybody even remembered he appeared in Uncanny X-Men.

How many issues has Kyle appeared with Northstar after U X-Men 509 before they got married in A X-Men 51 ? I think only 3 issues! LOL.

Iceman and Northstar have appeared together in more issues than Kyle before their wedding.

[Anduinel]

I am not a fan of the marriage with Kyle for 2 reasons

I felt it happened, not as the next step of character development of Northstar, but as a way to retire him, similar to PAD marrying Madrox and Layla in the last issues of his run. (Madrox was in limbo since that run ended until death of X, Layla is still in limbo)

That was a legitimate concern that came up a lot around the time the wedding was announced, but it didn't materialize. Northstar was still working with the X-Men and on another team within a month or two of Liu's run on Astonishing wrapping up. It wasn't until Secret Wars caused a linewide reboot and a year plus of time-skip that he fell off the face of the earth, along with a lot of other C-List mutants.

The other reason is relationships between superpowered beings and normal humans generally turn into relationships in which the superhero has to protect the normal human (think Spiderman and Mary Jane or his Aunt), so I prefer superpowered beings dating other superpowered beings, or humans who aren't normal humans-civilians, and I prefer marriages with many years of issues and character development behind them (but that character development may be impossible for an Alpha Flight character since the mid 90s, since they tend to be in limbo)

I have my favorite power couples (Midnighter and Apollo, Wiccan and Hulkling) but I also like the grounding element that can come with a cape and civvie pairing (Superman and Lois, Banshee and Moira, Wonder Woman and Steve). But obviously people's mileage varies.

Hardly anybody even remembered he appeared in Uncanny X-Men.

Just because you want to ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Iceman and Northstar have appeared together in more issues than Kyle before their wedding.

You're likely way off-count due to Nation X and Kyle's appearances in the 2011 Alpha Flight series. But that's a big "So what?" anyway when you're arguing quantity over substance. Northstar had a one-sided crush on Iceman that popped up and was put down in a single issue. That's the entire canonical substance of any romantic interest between the two of them, and their next significant interaction was Bobby threatening to kill Northstar if anything happened to Angel. Meanwhile, every instance of Northstar's interactions with Kyle have made it clear that they're together as a couple.

'Ship what you like, but the idea that there was this bond between Northstar and Iceman before Liu properly made them friends over in Astonishing just doesn't have a lot of support in canon.

[jalsrix]

You're likely way off-count due to Nation X and Kyle's appearances in the 2011 Alpha Flight series. But that's a big "So what?" anyway when you're arguing quantity over substance. Northstar had a one-sided crush on Iceman that popped up and was put down in a single issue. That's the entire canonical substance of any romantic interest between the two of them, and their next significant interaction was Bobby threatening to kill Northstar if anything happened to Angel.

Well then, please tell me just how many issues were Northstar with Kyle and which years was that.

And then tell me just how many issues were Northstar teamed up with Iceman and which years was that?

I don't read every issue, the issues I have were Astronishing X-Men when Northstar, Iceman, Karma were in the same team.

Of course, Iceman couldn't reciprocate any love by any men because he was still in the closet.

Your excuse of Iceman threatening to kill is invalid because that's not real Iceman.

When Northstar died, didn't he write a will with Iceman as beneficiary?

By the way, when did Northstar and Iceman really met?

[Anduinel]

Well then, please tell me just how many issues were Northstar with Kyle and which years was that.

And then tell me just how many issues were Northstar teamed up with Iceman and which years was that?

I don't read every issue, the issues I have were Astronishing X-Men when Northstar, Iceman, Karma were in the same team.

Dude, you were the one saying that Northstar and Iceman had all of these appearances together. It's your claim to back up, and I've already said why I don't think it's very significant either way. Do your own research if you're trying to make a point; I've got more than enough of my own to do, thanks.

Of course, Iceman couldn't reciprocate any love by any men because he was still in the closet.

And?

Your excuse of Iceman threatening to kill is invalid because that's not real Iceman.

Just because you want to ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

When Northstar died, didn't he write a will with Iceman as beneficiary?

I answered this when you brought it up over in the Iceman thread. The answer is still "no".

By the way, when did Northstar and Iceman really met?

You have got to be kidding me.

[jalsrix]

Dude, you were the one saying that Northstar and Iceman had all of these appearances together. It's your claim to back up, and I've already said why I don't think it's very significant either way. Do your own research if you're trying to make a point; I've got more than enough of my own to do, thanks.

You don't seem to know the answer.

Northstar officially met Iceman in Uncanny X-Men 414 in year 2002. (could be earlier off panel)

Northstar officially met Kyle in Uncanny X-Men 509 in year 2009.

So there you are, a 7 years difference or even earlier.

[Anduinel]

You don't seem to know the answer.

*rofl* Whatever you need to tell yourself, man.

Northstar officially met Iceman in Uncanny X-Men 414 in year 2002. (could be earlier off panel)

Northstar officially met Kyle in Uncanny X-Men 509 in year 2009.

So there you are, a 7 years difference or even earlier.

And that has what to do with anything?

(Also, UXM 509 isn't where Northstar and Kyle first meet, just Kyle's first appearance on-panel. Just an FYI, since you're speculating about off-panel happenings.)

[Anduinel]

Looks like Northstar was pretty bored with the Wolverine over-saturation of the 90's too.

(Alpha Flight #110)

[Anduinel]

Nick decided to put some quick colors on his New Year's sketch.