Resolving The Cyclops/Jean Grey/Wolverine Love Triangle Discussion

[Hizashi]

Jean was dead all that time while Scott was living after that awful run who changed him totally. That's why he is judged in-universe.

I meant the actions they took specifically during Morrison's run.

I need more coffee.

[Dethi]

I meant the actions they took specifically during Morrison's run.

I need more coffee.

We all need more coffee. That thing will not resolve itself soon...

[Hizashi]

We all need more coffee. That thing will not resolve itself soon...

Haha, yeah. I'm skulking on this forum instead of working...

[FUBAR007]

I have a problem when people say Jean's neglect doesn't count because Morrison but Scott is still judged in-universe. Either judge them equally or not at all.

Jean's neglect wasn't sufficiently portrayed in-universe, but rather left to the reader to infer. Scott's misdeeds, meanwhile, were explicitly and repeatedly portrayed.

IMO, this is where Morrison failed by his own standard. His view is that Scott's affair with Emma was justified because Jean "wasn't being his wife anymore." The problem is that he failed to convey that in his stories. Instead, he opened his run with Scott and Jean having grown distant from each other with the only explanation offered being that Scott was feeling insecure and having an identity crisis after his merger with Apocalypse. Then, after initially rebuffing her advances, Scott turned to Emma. What was missing to justify that were scenes of Scott, before turning to Emma, reaching out to Jean for understanding and support and her rejecting him or, at minimum, blowing him off. Instead, we got scenes of Jean feeling irritated, bewildered, and hurt, not understanding why Scott had turned away from her.

TL;DR: Morrison's statement is that Jean froze Scott out, but, the way he wrote the stories, it was Scott that froze Jean out.

Never mind, of course, that the whole plotline made no sense given the characters' established personalities and history. Why didn't we see more of Scott turning to his wife for support? >shrug< Why didn't Jean, historically a loving and supportive wife, try to engage Scott more? >shrug< Why didn't either one of them go to their mentor, friend, and counselor, Charles Xavier, for advice? >shrug< Why didn't Jean re-activate her telepathic rapport with Scott? >shrug< Why did Scott turn to Emma, of all people, for support and not Hank or Warren or Storm or Cable? >shrug< If Jean was becoming more remote and less human due to her link to the Phoenix force, and thus distancing herself from Scott, why didn't we see that? >shrug<

Morrison had a predetermined outcome he wanted to reach: Scott and Jean splitting up so Scott could be with Emma. The means of getting there, and their consistency with the characters' history, were a tertiary consideration and thus half-assed. He adapted the characters to his plot rather than adapt his plot to the characters.

[Hizashi]

Jean's neglect wasn't sufficiently portrayed in-universe, but rather left to the reader to infer. Scott's misdeeds, meanwhile, were explicitly and repeatedly portrayed.

IMO, this is where Morrison failed by his own standard. His view is that Scott's affair with Emma was justified because Jean "wasn't being his wife anymore." The problem is that he failed to convey that in his stories. Instead, he opened his run with Scott and Jean having grown distant from each other with the only explanation offered being that Scott was feeling insecure and having an identity crisis after his merger with Apocalypse. Then, after initially rebuffing her advances, Scott turned to Emma. What was missing to justify that were scenes of Scott, before turning to Emma, reaching out to Jean for understanding and support and her rejecting him or, at minimum, blowing him off. Instead, we got scenes of Jean feeling irritated, bewildered, and hurt, not understanding why Scott had turned away from her.

TL;DR: Morrison's statement is that Jean froze Scott out, but, the way he wrote the stories, it was Scott that froze Jean out.

Never mind, of course, that the whole plotline made no sense given the characters' established personalities and history. Why didn't we see more of Scott turning to his wife for support? >shrug< Why didn't Jean, historically a loving and supportive wife, try to engage Scott more? >shrug< Why didn't either one of them go to their mentor, friend, and counselor, Charles Xavier, for advice? >shrug< Why didn't Jean re-activate her telepathic rapport with Scott? >shrug< Why did Scott turn to Emma, of all people, for support and not Hank or Warren or Storm or Cable? >shrug< If Jean was becoming more remote and less human due to her link to the Phoenix force, and thus distancing herself from Scott, why didn't we see that? >shrug<

Morrison had a predetermined outcome he wanted to reach: Scott and Jean splitting up so Scott could be with Emma. The means of getting there, and their consistency with the characters' history, were a tertiary consideration and thus half-assed. He adapted the characters to his plot rather than adapt his plot to the characters.

That's a very clear cut explanation, I agree. I understand that he didn't portray Jean the way he meant to, which may be a blessing in itself. I can still find things to enjoy about his run, but the Jean/Scott/Emma thing will always remain a mine-field.

[Victorian_Soul]

I have a problem when people say Jean's neglect doesn't count because Morrison but Scott is still judged in-universe. Either judge them equally or not at all.

Not that you've done that, just in a general sense.

When people die they're usually remembered more fondly, unless they're horrible people.

[Hizashi]

When people die they're usually remembered more fondly, unless they're horrible people.

That's also a good point. I don't think anyone was expecting Jean to stay dead for so long, huh? I sure hope Scott doesn't give her a run for her money.

[spirit2011]

When people die they're usually remembered more fondly, unless they're horrible people.

That must sucks to Cyclops lol

But Jean comitted one little mistake compared to scott big pile of shit

Jean's neglect wasn't sufficiently portrayed in-universe, but rather left to the reader to infer. Scott's misdeeds, meanwhile, were explicitly and repeatedly portrayed.

IMO, this is where Morrison failed by his own standard. His view is that Scott's affair with Emma was justified because Jean "wasn't being his wife anymore." The problem is that he failed to convey that in his stories. Instead, he opened his run with Scott and Jean having grown distant from each other with the only explanation offered being that Scott was feeling insecure and having an identity crisis after his merger with Apocalypse. Then, after initially rebuffing her advances, Scott turned to Emma. What was missing to justify that were scenes of Scott, before turning to Emma, reaching out to Jean for understanding and support and her rejecting him or, at minimum, blowing him off. Instead, we got scenes of Jean feeling irritated, bewildered, and hurt, not understanding why Scott had turned away from her.

TL;DR: Morrison's statement is that Jean froze Scott out, but, the way he wrote the stories, it was Scott that froze Jean out.

Never mind, of course, that the whole plotline made no sense given the characters' established personalities and history. Why didn't we see more of Scott turning to his wife for support? >shrug< Why didn't Jean, historically a loving and supportive wife, try to engage Scott more? >shrug< Why didn't either one of them go to their mentor, friend, and counselor, Charles Xavier, for advice? >shrug< Why didn't Jean re-activate her telepathic rapport with Scott? >shrug< Why did Scott turn to Emma, of all people, for support and not Hank or Warren or Storm or Cable? >shrug< If Jean was becoming more remote and less human due to her link to the Phoenix force, and thus distancing herself from Scott, why didn't we see that? >shrug<

Morrison had a predetermined outcome he wanted to reach: Scott and Jean splitting up so Scott could be with Emma. The means of getting there, and their consistency with the characters' history, were a tertiary consideration and thus half-assed. He adapted the characters to his plot rather than adapt his plot to the characters.

Yep I always found funny that Morrison never wrote those thing into his story.

Like if Scott is cheating on Emma because Jean wasn't being his wife anymore, you could say the same thing for Jean. The only difference is that Scott is th eone that stopped being a husband, while Jean kept trying to break his wall

And, here I thought that Scott was just being a coward and wanted his wife to read his mind and delete his sexipade with Apocalypse from his mind...

He could had said it.

what a great leader he is hahaha

[CuteClops]

That must sucks to Cyclops lol

But Jean comitted one little mistake compared to scott big pile of shit



Yep I always found funny that Morrison never wrote those thing into his story.

Like if Scott is cheating on Emma because Jean wasn't being his wife anymore, you could say the same thing for Jean. The only difference is that Scott is th eone that stopped being a husband, while Jean kept trying to break his wall



He could had said it.

what a great leader he is hahaha

At least he was a leader, while Jean is only important when she is dead.

If she's alive or without the Force Phoenix, Jean is nothing. That's why she's just a prize.

For fourteen years. Dead. And nobody really cared her, except her fans. LOL

The Phoenix Force is important, Jean is irrelevant.

[spirit2011]

At least he was a leader, while Jean is only important when she is dead.

not even remotely true

If she's alive or without the Force Phoenix, Jean is nothing. That's why she's just a prize.

not slightly true

For fourteen years. Dead. And nobody really cared her, except her fans. LOL

another lie

The Phoenix Force is important, Jean is irrelevant.

Keep repeating these words maybe one day they gonna be true

[Hizashi]

That must sucks to Cyclops lol

But Jean comitted one little mistake compared to scott big pile of shit



Yep I always found funny that Morrison never wrote those thing into his story.

Like if Scott is cheating on Emma because Jean wasn't being his wife anymore, you could say the same thing for Jean. The only difference is that Scott is th eone that stopped being a husband, while Jean kept trying to break his wall



He could had said it.

what a great leader he is hahaha

Nah, Jean (and her proxy, Jeen) has made bad mistakes as well and knowingly or unkowingly bullied others with her power. Do billions of lives not count? (That's a trick question, Marvel doesn't care)

It's funny because certain people ignore Morrison telling us what he was trying to do, his failing to do that doesn't negate his intention. It also doesn't change the fact that Jean didn't give Scott the help he asked for; last time I checked, that's part of being a wife, helping your husband, right? She didn't "keep trying" she tried once half-heartedly and then ran to Logan. And before anyone tries to put words in my mouth, I'm not excusing anyone, but why do people ignore Jean's actions? Are they equal? That's subjective, but they were both wrong (especially the way Morrison wrote them, I'm sure y'all will want to add).

So Jean's inability to help her husband is okay but Scott's hypothetical inability to ask for a mind wipe is wrong? Makes him a coward? I am using what's in the book and what Morrison has said, you are talking about hypothetical scenarios.

[Hizashi]

At least he was a leader, while Jean is only important when she is dead.

If she's alive or without the Force Phoenix, Jean is nothing. That's why she's just a prize.

For fourteen years. Dead. And nobody really cared her, except her fans. LOL

The Phoenix Force is important, Jean is irrelevant.

I'm not agreeing with spirit2011 here, but I have to say the following:

Jean belongs to a very unique group of characters who were killed and remained dead for long periods of time - Barry Allen's Flash, Jason Todd's Robin, Hal Jordan's Green Lantern. Mostly DC, huh? The point is that a case can be made that all of those characters, including Jean, served a greater purpose while dead. That's up for debate, and everyone has their own opinion on that. Her status as the Phoenix changes her returns, which does set her apart from the others.

Plenty of people wanted her back, they might not have been vocal.

[Hizashi]

sure just her fans. they are probably a really big part because first hope, then teen jean and now the adult jean is back.

stop being a delusional j

Yeah, but Hope and Jeen are superfluous, they were bandages applied to the GSW that Marvel inflicted to Jean fans.

[CuteClops]

sure just her fans. they are probably a really big part because first hope, then teen jean and now the adult jean is back.

stop being a delusional j

But don't worry, she's a hot prize. Logan knows that. After all, he's the best lover of the world. Jean knows that.

[FUBAR007]

That's a very clear cut explanation, I agree. I understand that he didn't portray Jean the way he meant to, which may be a blessing in itself. [...] ...but the Jean/Scott/Emma thing will always remain a mine-field.

Based on his comments after he left the X-franchise, I think Morrison was trying with the Jean/Scott/Emma triangle to do something similar to the Dr. Manhattan/Silk Spectre II/Nite-Owl II triangle in Watchmen. But, as I laid out above, he failed to lay sufficient groundwork for it.

I can still find things to enjoy about his run...

Despite all the crap I give it and the fact that it drove me to quit buying X-Men comics altogether, so do I.

In terms of craft, skill with the mechanics of the comics medium, etc., Morrison is hands down the most technically proficient writer ever to work on the franchise. New X-Men vol 1 121--the silent, 'Nuff Said issue--wherein Jean and Emma enter Xavier's mind to free him from Cassandra Nova's trap is one of my favorite X-Men stories. Before the Scemma affair kicked into gear, I enjoyed the basic dynamic between Jean and Emma, the yin and yang of Xavier's heirs apparent. The extension of the X-Men into the global X-Corporation was a logical, long overdue development, planting X-Men teams around the world. I wish Marvel had kept that longer after he left. The revelation that Weapon X was really Weapon Ten, the link to Captain America and the Super Soldier Program, and a lot of the stuff with Weapon Plus was quite clever. Most of all, though, I liked what Morrison did with the idea of mutants as a minority, exploring the idea of mutant culture, introducing mutants with useless and sometimes detrimental mutations, and the variety of weird powers he gave the new students.

Much of the art, particularly Phil Jimenez and Ethan Van Sciver's stuff, was positively gorgeous. Silvestri's issues were damn good-looking, too. I don't particularly care for his style, but I can't deny Frank Quitely's storytelling ability and how well he groks Morrison's approach.

But, Morrison blew it when it came to characterization. He got Scott and Jean all wrong. He de-aged and cheapened Emma. He botched Magneto with the whole Xorn fiasco (thankfully retconned away after he left). Morrison's run is so inconsistent with what came before in this regard that, IMO, it only makes sense when read as a soft reboot.