Dark Knight #3 - Wonder Woman's clay origin coming back?

[Outside_85]

Women with a sense of agency and a positive purpose is certainly a big part of it.

The problem with the Hippolyta-Zeus relationship has less to do with agency and more to do with the motivations and unequal power dynamic. In Azzarello's three year run, he never mentions that Hippolyta wanted a child so badly that even the gods took notice. That was an afterthought that only came later in Secret Origins. Hippolyta's daughter should not be the product of an afterthought.

Then, there's the issue that Zeus is not simply a father - he's a patriarch. In the Extras section on the WW bluray, there's a video where the discuss they Trinity. There, Geoff Johns echoes Azzarello's original statement regarding this change - that Diana is now defined as "a daughter of a god." That's normalizing patriarchal patterns and using them to define women in relation to men. It takes away the role (and agency) of the female goddesses in giving life and helping to make women powerful.

Excellent.

And I don't know if he should have, I mean what does it add that Hippolyta's womb made noises so loud Olympus could hear it? Initially... I would actually argue that Hippolyta depicts the situation and her part of it as rather empowering, she goes to bed with him on her terms and it is actually a doomed love story, because she knows she can't be with him for more than a night. So she has that one night, and then leaves him and he doesn't follow. I dont see how any of this is a bad thing, it's just not as fantastical as it used to be.

Yes, Zeus is the king of gods... but I feel a lot of people let themselves be blinded by him now being her father, because you don't have to go very far beyond the surface to find out the only thing Zeus really is, is the guy who provided her with power... everything she is and everything she does is a result of her being born and raised around powerful women, as was also the case before.
Diana is a demigod because of Zeus
She is a princess because of Hippolyta
She is a great commander because of the Amazons
She is a great fighter because of the Amazons
And she is a kindhearted and just person because of the Amazons

Equal credit? Again, the creation of the Amazons, and Diana specifically, was not Hermes' idea - he's there only in a supporting role. He is not the one to sculpt her and pray to bring her life. Add in the Simone revision of it - it requires Hippolyta's own blood. It's a very maternal metaphor. And done very well.

In 1986 we see 7 people come together to create Diana, we do not see or hear any of the doing more or less to create her, hence equal credit for the team-effort.
Simone's revision was largely unnecessary. We had 25 years of wet sand from the beach being enough, then it all of a sudden had to come from a monster.

And in the New 52, you stopped with metaphors and just made maternity like it normally is.

[QUOTE]Fair point. Though poor Metis, even Athena never seems to think about her murdered mother.

A child birth doesn't need to not include any role from any male to still be maternal. I'm not even against the idea of Diana having a biological father. I'm against her having a patriarch and being redefined as such. See the difference?

Moms in mythology tend to get ignored... sadly. Unless they happen to be Gaea who coughs up monsters.

But thats the thing, the only person(s) who is doing this... is the people out here.

Mostly goddesses, correct? Inside of Gaia, right? Even without Hippolyta's role, it's still a very gendered story that showcases the women.

Mind if I ask, but wasn't this storage the goddess had set up located somewhere inside Hades?

[Zahina]

Just wondering, would anyone prefer if Hades was Diana's father?

[Agent Z]

Just wondering, would anyone prefer if Hades was Diana's father?

No I don't think anyone would.

[Outside_85]

Just wondering, would anyone prefer if Hades was Diana's father?

Doubt it.

But it does remind me of the episode in the JLU where he strongly suggests it to be the case, and that to Diana it ultimately didn't matter as long as she knows who she is and what she was raised to do.

[Awonder]

Excellent.

Why do I picture you laughing maniacally and twirling your mustache?

And I don't know if he should have, I mean what does it add that Hippolyta's womb made noises so loud Olympus could hear it?

Have you read The True Amazon? You have read Simone's run, right?

Initially... I would actually argue that Hippolyta depicts the situation and her part of it as rather empowering, she goes to bed with him on her terms and it is actually a doomed love story, because she knows she can't be with him for more than a night. So she has that one night, and then leaves him and he doesn't follow. I dont see how any of this is a bad thing, it's just not as fantastical as it used to be.

Not buying it. Even if we white-wash Zeus by ignoring that he's a serial rapist and abuser of women - it's a very lazy trope.

Yes, Zeus is the king of gods... but I feel a lot of people let themselves be blinded by him now being her father, because you don't have to go very far beyond the surface to find out the only thing Zeus really is, is the guy who provided her with power...

Even if he plays no other role, Zeus as the source of her power is a pretty big deal. As I menationed, it's how Azzarello redefined WW. It's how Johns now defines her. It's a very patriarchal narrative that "you are the super special one because of your daddy." And it's not just limited to Zeus, but it's a role that our stories keep restricting women from being (Marvel's movie Asgard is not an egalitarian society either).

... everything she is and everything she does is a result of her being born and raised around powerful women, as was also the case before.
Diana is a demigod because of Zeus
She is a princess because of Hippolyta
She is a great commander because of the Amazons
She is a great fighter because of the Amazons
And she is a kindhearted and just person because of the Amazons

First, which version of WW are you speaking of? Because, Azzarello also added Ares in as her bestest teacher, too, and the whole thing was dad's plan for his daughter.

In 1986 we see 7 people come together to create Diana, we do not see or hear any of the doing more or less to create her, hence equal credit for the team-effort.

Yes, it was a team effort. No, the roles were not equal.

Simone's revision was largely unnecessary. We had 25 years of wet sand from the beach being enough, then it all of a sudden had to come from a monster.

I'm not focused on the clay that was used, I'm focused on the blood and effort from Hippolyta.

And in the New 52, you stopped with metaphors and just made maternity like it normally is.

While Nu52 made Diana literally born of Hippolyta, but, by making the story much more about Zeus, the story shifts the focus away from her to him. That's why it's actually less maternal.

Moms in mythology tend to get ignored... sadly.

It's not just mythology. Super heroes continue this trend. Would you agree that this trend is a bad thing?

Unless they happen to be Gaea who coughs up monsters.

Even Gaia doesn't get as much attention as Zeus.

But thats the thing, the only person(s) who is doing this... is the people out here.

What people doing what out where? Care to clarify what you mean here?

Mind if I ask, but wasn't this storage the goddess had set up located somewhere inside Hades?

Yes and no. Have you read the issue? "Aye, Aphrodite. It is the well of Rebirth -- the Cavern of Souls! It is, in truth, the source from which all life once sprung! It is the womb of Gaia -- mother of us all!"

Note: I'm not saying the Perez version is perfect. But, if they were going to make some changes, I'd want more care to keep the maternal and feminist aspects of it. The movie did a much better job that DC has, but, even the movie has problems (aka Zeus).

Edit-
I know we tend to go back and forth, picking apart each other's arguments, but I'm not sure I really understand where you on coming from on this. I know you like Azzarello's run overall; but I don't really understand why you like the specific change to making Zeus Diana's daddy (and patriarchal source of power) so much. I feel like you defend it to defend Azzarello's run overall, but I'm not clear as to what is is about this particular change you like so much (aside from Hippolyta choosing to have sex).

You've suggested before that maybe the sex raids didn't really happened, that Heph didn't tell the whole truth. Hypothetically, if we were Dr. Manhattan and changing the DCU, would you be open to changing Zeus' as Diana's father? Or, to borrow Silvanus' old suggestion, revealing that Hippolyta came from her own powerful (and matriarchal) lineage?