Dark Knight #3 - Wonder Woman's clay origin coming back?

[Outside_85]

How hard would it be to say that yes, Diana (and Jason) were molded from clay, but it was Zeus's powers that animated the clay bringing the both of them to life?

There. That should satisfy everyone. (Well probably not everyone.)

Think that would satisfy no one to be honest.

[TruthAndJustice]

Think that would satisfy no one to be honest.

Fine, I give up...

[Astroman]

How hard would it be to say that yes, Diana (and Jason) were molded from clay, but it was Zeus's powers that animated the clay bringing the both of them to life?

There. That should satisfy everyone. (Well probably not everyone.)

Because (at least how it seems to me), right, wrong, or just personal taste, DC doesn't *want* the clay origin and consider *it* to be the thing that needed fixing. Jason is a byproduct (or subset) of the Zeus origin 'fix'. Not the other way around. In other words, Jason is here to reinforce and provide more continuity that strengthens the Zeus parentage. Not that the Zeus origin was kept in order to justify the new character of Jason.

[TruthAndJustice]

I don't get DC's hostility to the clay origin. To me it's as key to Diana's origins as Superman's origins on Krypton. Or almost as key.

I'll say this -- if Diana is daughter of Zeus, Cassie Sandsmark had better not be. THAT should turn out to be a lie. I don't want them to be literal sisters.

[MajorHoy]

I'd like them to bring back Nubia as Diana's sister . . .





. . . but I doubt that will happen.

[AmiMizuno]

I rather have Nubia this Jason. Her and Donna came way before him and than Dc probably wants he to replace Donna and Nubia. Why else no have had a storyline with Donna or Cassie?

[Sacred Knight]

How hard would it be to say that yes, Diana (and Jason) were molded from clay, but it was Zeus's powers that animated the clay bringing the both of them to life?

There. That should satisfy everyone. (Well probably not everyone.)

Wouldn't be hard, but wouldn't have the same resonance, imo. It'd be a purely technical relation, and if they want any emotional resonance in this, which I'd imagine they do because what's the point of it otherwise, then it wouldn't be a great idea to base it all on something as empty and hollow than a technicality.

I don't get DC's hostility to the clay origin/

I don't know if there is or ever was any specific hostility toward the origin. The change just happened to be a part of Azz's original pitch that they overall liked and went with, and it just was the one thing that stuck from there. Why it stuck is probably that they grew to like it after the fact. But I don't see it as being a situation where they were actively and specifically looking to be rid of it when crafting the reboot. We already know Azz's ideas were not what they were originally going to do. They were going to do something drastically different with the reboot that they only walked back on after liking Azz's pitch better. And who knows if those original ideas had the clay origin going away.

[Outside_85]

I don't get DC's hostility to the clay origin.

Same could be said of the hostility towards the Zeus origins.

[TruthAndJustice]

I rather have Nubia this Jason. Her and Donna came way before him and than Dc probably wants he to replace Donna and Nubia. Why else no have had a storyline with Donna or Cassie?

I suspect many people find the name "Nubia" insulting. (Why does a black character have to have a name based on "Nubian"? It's like so many black characters being named Black...something. Luke Cage/Power Man being one of the few exceptions.)

[MajorHoy]

I suspect many people find the name "Nubia" insulting. (Why does a black character have to have a name based on "Nubian"? It's like so many black characters being named Black...something. Luke Cage/Power Man being one of the few exceptions.)

Well, it was a very early 1970s character (this was right after her "Special Women's Lib Issue"), and the concepts could be kept with a slight name change for the character.

[Awonder]

Thing is that you can't really do much with origin stories once the big reveal has happened, and that goes for most characters.

With the Zeus origins, I can think of the following kinds of stories that could come afterwards:
-Diana gets roped into a situation involving the family, either with Zeus, Hera or one of her siblings.
-Something shows up at Diana's doorstep because she is one of Zeus' kids, either to cause trouble or to seek aid.

The clay origins however I struggle with thinking of stories you can do with it beyond Diana realizing it, like do we want:
-Diana has a sudden existential crisis where she starts to doubt her own humanity.
-If Diana is made of clay and that clay can somehow be extracted and reshaped.

I think an argument could be made that the Zeus origins at least gives easy rise to heroic stories, while the clay origins is just kind of there. Like if we look back over Diana's long history, aren't we only looking at a handful of stories that actually do something with the fact that Diana wasn't born of flesh and blood?

To me, this sounds more like the outline for DC's Master Class of Lazy Writing Tropes.

Batman has been the single biggest name in superheroes for quite some time - and the Joker is the quintessential super villain. Are they related by birth? Sinestro Corps War through Blackest Night was the biggest thing for GL in a long time - how much of that revolved around Hal's family tree? The circumstances of Diana's birth are only an obstacle for stories going forward if the writer is lazy.

Diana has, and still could, just as easily interact with the gods without being directly related to them (see 70 years of her history).

Same could be said of the hostility towards the Zeus origins.

Because it's a sexist patriarchal erasure of what was rightfully meant to be a non-patriarchal celebration of women.

[Awonder]

That's even less original than being made of clay or being the daughter of Zeus. (Also highly unlikely that Hippolyta would happen to somehow meet a "normal person" and have a roll in the hay with him!)

I propose a contest - You name all the tv shows, books, games, etc based on the children of Hippolyta and a normal man. I name the ones based on children of Zeus. Which side do you think will have more?

It would almost be as bad a retcon as Geoff Johns deciding to kill Barry Allen's mother off when he was a kid so Barry would have more motivation/angst when he became The Flash.

Ok, this one flew right past me (guess my reflexes weren't fast enough to catch it ) - what does the retconned death of Barry's mom have to do with the idea of Diana having a normal dad?

[Awonder]

Wouldn't be hard, but wouldn't have the same resonance, imo. It'd be a purely technical relation, and if they want any emotional resonance in this, which I'd imagine they do because what's the point of it otherwise, then it wouldn't be a great idea to base it all on something as empty and hollow than a technicality.

Emotional resonance? Tell me, are you closer to friends you've had for most of your life or someone you've just met that has a DNA test showing they are a blood relative?

I don't know if there is or ever was any specific hostility toward the origin. The change just happened to be a part of Azz's original pitch that they overall liked and went with, and it just was the one thing that stuck from there. Why it stuck is probably that they grew to like it after the fact. But I don't see it as being a situation where they were actively and specifically looking to be rid of it when crafting the reboot. We already know Azz's ideas were not what they were originally going to do. They were going to do something drastically different with the reboot that they only walked back on after liking Azz's pitch better. And who knows if those original ideas had the clay origin going away.

While I wasn't there, and they did not consult me - I don't believe this is accurate. First, Azzarello did not pitch for the nu52 WW run until after his meeting with DiDio where, according to Azzarello, they discussed DC's plans to change WW.

Second, the only interview I saw with Azzarello where he was forthcoming and clear on a question regarding the more controversial elements of his run was in regards to Diana's conception. He was pretty adamant that Zeus did not rape Hippolyta. That, to me, gives us the best evidence of what DiDio had planned - though it was likely Hercules in that role.

My point is simply that DiDio was planning changes, based on what he saw as "problems," before Azzarello formulated his own pitch.

But it seems so patently obvious that these guys who forced a male daddy into the Wonder Woman story were doing it out of some male need to insert a male character into the story. They just couldn't stand to have an all-female origin for Diana. They must surely see that themselves. I wonder at their chutzpah. Has anyone ever confronted them point blank about their intentions and the blatant paternalism in this rewrite?

I agree with you, Jim. But, sadly, I have not seen anyone from DC leadership really address issues like sexism in comics openly, even in general terms, much less when it comes to their own decision making. Marvel Studios, afaik, has yet to speak openly about the male-centric (and other problems) apparent in their movies - but, the evidence is in the product.

Now, I don't think that those calling the shots at DC (or Marvel) really do so out of a contempt or dislike of women. What they like is their job, and their job is to make money. The market, and the larger cultural environment, is largely skewed male-centric across the globe. It comes as no real surprise to me that Johns has written Flash and GL much better than he has WW - I doubt he read as many WW comics as a kid as he did Flash and GL.

In short, I think adding Zeus, and now Jason, is mostly done for marketing - but, that marketing, unfortunately, is still very male-centric.

[Sacred Knight]

Emotional resonance? Tell me, are you closer to friends you've had for most of your life or someone you've just met that has a DNA test showing they are a blood relative?

I'm not really seeing the relevance of the hypothetical. I'm just going off what this story is. They're telling a story about a brother and a sister, thus I'm basing my opinions going forward on that and only that. And operating off that, they sure better look to have some emotion to it if they want it to be a successful tale. And in my opinion you get off to a better start there by them actually being related as intended instead of just an empty technicality. I'm arguing only against these so-called compromises within the context of what they are actually doing. Not whether or not they should've in the first place or anything like that. That's another argument entirely.

While I wasn't there, and they did not consult me - I don't believe this is accurate. First, Azzarello did not pitch for the nu52 WW run until after his meeting with DiDio where, according to Azzarello, they discussed DC's plans to change WW.

Second, the only interview I saw with Azzarello where he was forthcoming and clear on a question regarding the more controversial elements of his run was in regards to Diana's conception. He was pretty adamant that Zeus did not rape Hippolyta. That, to me, gives us the best evidence of what DiDio had planned - though it was likely Hercules in that role.

My point is simply that DiDio was planning changes, based on what he saw as "problems," before Azzarello formulated his own pitch.

I admit I of course can't know for sure if this belief is true without knowing what the original changes, before that meeting Didio, were going to be. Azz has never articulated what they were going to do and I doubt he ever will, All he was willing to divulge was that he thought the ideas were bad which prompted him to offer his services. If said original ideas also had an element of removing the clay origin, it certainly would be evidence that it was something on their to-do-list regardless and it wasn't the happenstance of a particular pitch.

[MajorHoy]

Ok, this one flew right past me (guess my reflexes weren't fast enough to catch it ) - what does the retconned death of Barry's mom have to do with the idea of Diana having a normal dad?

One's an unnecessary retcon DC did . . . the other would be a lame, unnecessary, and illogical retcon if DC decided to go that route. (As I said before, where/when/why would Hippolyta be meeting a "normal man"? She doesn't normally leave Themscyria to go hang out in a place where she could pick up a dude? When did Themscyria suddenly become a destination place for men on vacations or anything?)