What’s Dc’s problem with Wonder Woman ?

[ssupes]

As to this particular decision itself - one origin is maternal and feminist, the other is male-centric and patriarchal. As a WW fan and a feminist, I applaud Rucka for (what you call) his "spite" on this.

Wrong issue sorry.

[Astroman]

Okay, you know what, let's say we cop to this then. so going by that, what exactly are we blaming Rucka for again?

I think Sacred Knight has laid it out pretty clearly in this entire thread.

See post #18 for my take on it and #29 for a nice summary from Sacred Knight.

[Awonder]

Have you seen the interview he gave about that particular issue? Because he didn't give any feminist reasons for his spite, just his personal bias (ironic given his blackest night work) so he simply showed wonder woman as heartless to narcissistic levels just to prove a point that was later retconned (like his origin).

I don't know which interview, nor am I clear which issue you are referring to. I'm speaking to the merits of the different versions of Diana's birth.

As someone who does not like twisting the WW story to conform as yet another patriarchal narrative, I am glad Rucka and Scott left Year One with no direct reference to Zeus. I get to enjoy it much more that way.

[Astroman]

*I going to assume that your use of "juvenile" here is not in regards to Rucka (and me) supporting the much more maternal and feminist origin.

Sacred Knight can speak for him/herself but is that necessary? I think it's pretty clear that the point is that Rucka was hired to do a job, was given clear guidelines and chose to undermine it... not that anyone here is championing the downfall of feminism.

If Rucka was so concerned about an idealistic feminist cause, why take the gig in the first place knowing what DC's agenda is? Why not make a better showing (he doesn't need the gig or the relationship with DC) by saying, "I turned down the offer because I don't agree with DC's take on Diana."

[Sacred Knight]

How do these go together? If you are blaming both Rucka and DC, while acknowledging that DC has the real decision making power here, then, why are you only ascribing "spite" and "juvenile*" to Rucka alone?


*I going to assume that your use of "juvenile" here is not in regards to Rucka (and me) supporting the much more maternal and feminist origin.

Juvenile was indeed not toward you, but even that I got rid of. Not a good choice of words.

Everything else I think I've answered and explained in full to my previous post. If there's anything I've missed and didn't clarify fully, I'll do so but barring that I think I've gone the rounds as much as I can. But like I said before, I respect just a flat disagreement.

[Awonder]

Sacred Knight can speak for him/herself but is that necessary? I think it's pretty clear that the point is that Rucka was hired to do a job, was given clear guidelines and chose to undermine it... not that anyone here is championing the downfall of feminism.

How is supporting the forced inclusion of a patrarichal-erasure of a non-patriarchal narrative not undermining feminism? Zeus is the epitome of anti-feminist.

If Rucka was so concerned about an idealistic feminist cause, why take the gig in the first place knowing what DC's agenda is? Why not make a better showing (he doesn't need the gig or the relationship with DC) by saying, "I turned down the offer because I don't agree with DC's take on Diana."

Because maybe he wanted to make the WW lore as good as he could?

Just because Johns has the higher ranked position at DC does not mean he alway has the best ideas, especially when it comes to WW.

[ssupes]

I don't know which interview, nor am I clear which issue you are referring to. I'm speaking to the merits of the different versions of Diana's birth.

As someone who does not like twisting the WW story to conform as yet another patriarchal narrative, I am glad Rucka and Scott left Year One with no direct reference to Zeus. I get to enjoy it much more that way.

Sorry, confusion on a wrong issue. Though it does seem Rucka merely reintroduced the old origins with his flavor rather then using the new 52 origins is more spite towards the entirety of the new 52 then gender equality issues given that he hasn't stated otherwise.

[Awonder]

Juvenile was indeed not toward you, but even that I got rid of. Not a good choice of words.

And I applaud you for good use of the edit feature.

Everything else I think I've answered and explained in full to my previous post. If there's anything I've missed and didn't clarify fully, I'll do so but barring that I think I've gone the rounds as much as I can. But like I said before, I respect just a flat disagreement.

I think much of our disagreement comes from approaching this differently. Personally, I don't care that much about clear continuity if the decision at the foundation is flawed. DC has gone about forcing men into the WW story very poorly. Rucka is by far the better WW writer, and Johns should be smart enough to take note. Instead, he's insisting on his marketing stunt because it's his idea.

I could just ignore the comics - but, what worries me most is that he's also in charge of the movies. Hopefully, he's smart enough to listen to Patty.

[Awonder]

Sorry, confusion on a wrong issue. Though it does seem Rucka merely reintroduced the old origins with his flavor rather then using the new 52 origins is more spite towards the entirety of the new 52 then gender equality issues given that he hasn't stated otherwise.

I take it you were referring to the Superman relationship? I'm open to the idea of it, but I think it was poorly handled in nu52. Still, Rebrith would have been better to just not deal with it.

Rucka is a very out spoken feminist. So, I'd wager any spite he has to nu52 is due in large part to the anti-feminist changes that were made there. But, that could just be me projecting my own spite.

[SiegePerilous02]

Outside of not doing a good job promoting her when they get the chance (but essentially this is a big problem across the board with anything that isn't Batman-related within DC), if anything the current creative team seems to be trying to right the ship. I don't want to count the eggs before they're hatched though as we're only two issues in, but its trying. But it shouldn't be in the position of having to right the ship in the first place. Rebirth reinvigorated some franchises that needed it, and after the success of her movie, WW was in a prime position. DC and Rucka botched it. He's getting far too much credit here for a pretty shoddy job of a run. The currently existing continuity problems are problems HE helped create and foster.

I really don't think there are as many continuity problems now as there were when Rucka first came on. The New 52 era of Wonder Woman was shaky as all get out. I mean, right in the first year we had Hephaestus say the lasso didn't do anything and that Diana herself intimidated the truth out of people, while over in JL the lasso was making Hal announce how horny he was. Azzarello never really delved into the history of the Amazons or why they did anything they did, while other books like Batwoman, Demon Knights and SM/WW spat out random details that never added up into anything coherent; Barbara Minerva became the Cheetah by stabbing herself with the Godslayer, but suddenly Urzkartaga is back in the mix with the Finch run; Johns got the ball rolling early in Darkseid War by establishing that Diana was the only child on the island, which blatantly contradicted the existence of Aleka and the male Amazons. Outside of the Azzarello run, there wasn't really any direction to speak of, they clearly had no idea what to do after he left, and Johns and other writers weren't helping by firing out random details in other books.

At least now, we know the story of how she left home and actually got to see her meet her companions (instead of being told about it after the fact), we firmly know the circumstances behind Barbara's curse because we got to actually see it, and we see the origins of Cale and Dr. Cyber laid out for us, we know for sure who the real Amazons are and why she's prevented from being back home. The only real unanswered question was the circumstances of her birth, and even that was staring us right in the face with the notable absence of clarification, Jason being alluded to in the Rebirth one shot, Hippolyta taking the Eagle (Zeus's sacred bird) as a sign that the patrons have benevolent purposes in Year One, and Jason himself returning in the current run, so it shouldn't even be as much of a confusing issue as it is. Rucka probably should have gotten over himself a bit and devoted a page or something to saying Zeus was her dad*, but really it's fans not liking the final product and creating issues to be confused about.

*If that's even what prevented him from doing so here.

[Astroman]

How is supporting the forced inclusion of a patrarichal-erasure of a non-patriarchal narrative not undermining feminism? Zeus is the epitome of anti-feminist.

My point was that you accused Sacred Knight of having a patriarchal agenda in this thread, although the posts have been very clear as to what SK's point actually is (seeing Rucka's approach as being unprofessional and leading to unnecessary confusion). To accuse otherwise is mean and insulting (I thought we aren't supposed to insult people on these forums) whether your issues are the same as his.

Just because Johns has the higher ranked position at DC does not mean he alway has the best ideas, especially when it comes to WW.

I'm not a fan of Johns work for the most part, but the discord between Editorial and Rucka clearly created more confusion... that's the only point being made by SK and to a lesser extent myself.

[Lex Luthor]

All that speaks to is that DC hasn't had a clear idea of what they've wanted to do with Diana for any significant period of her existence. But we've already known this. Authorized changing of the mythos, while tiring and hurtful in its own right, isn't my point here. I've detailed the specifics of this situation that I have a problem with and its not just the concept of changes. And Rucka knew. So did Nicola Scott. She's outright said so. They didn't say what that element was at the time, but they were clear there was a specific known element they couldn't change. In hindsight its perfectly clear that element was the birth. Any narrative that the creative team was blindsided by this after the pitch doesn't hold up any scrutiny of the evidence.

Also, Superman and Batman have kept some New 52 ideas in their lore too. Wonder Woman keeping one of hers is hardly unique.

I don't think either Batman or Superman have had changes on par with Wonder Woman. And I don't say this to dredge up that tired debate but the changes to their continuity and character still kept there creations intact and didn't come with the confusion that Wonder Woman's New 52 mythology came with. She was changed in a way that you could easily see her as an entirely different character while Batman and Superman had changes that were big but somewhat expected if you're starting from square one

[Awonder]

My point was that you accused Sacred Knight of having a patriarchal agenda in this thread, although the posts have been very clear as to what SK's point actually is (seeing Rucka's approach as being unprofessional and leading to unnecessary confusion). To accuse otherwise is mean and insulting (I thought we aren't supposed to insult people on these forums) whether your issues are the same as his.

I'm not accusing SacredKnight of having a patriarchal agenda - I'm accusing DC of having a male-market-agenda (*cough*patriarchal*cough*). The proof is in their product.

And, I'm defending the merit in Rucka's apparent decision of not wanting his own work to directly support that patriarchal narrative.

I'm not a fan of Johns work for the most part, but the discord between Editorial and Rucka clearly created more confusion... that's the only point being made by SK and to a lesser extent myself.

And since editorial has the real power and control here, ultimatley, the blame for any "confusion" lies with them. It's not as if DC always keeps their continuity straight and Rucka is the only one to muck with it - just read SiegePerilous's post above. Rebirth got messy before Rebirth even started. Nu52 had its own issues. Post-Infinite Crisis was messy. DC has yet to do a continuity fix that doesn't get messy.