What are the big reasons stopping you buying Marvel now?

[Colossus1980]

Actually what he said was “except for a few names we don't observe differences in sales due do the artist name”, that's totally different from your ”paraphrases“ and doesn't imply efforts to not invest in artistic talent. Marvel has lot of great artists, it's the average American comics reader that believes that good artist means hyper realistic plastic-y Mc Niven clone that's the problem.

Marvel has some great artists and some good ones. The rest are average to below. Marvel puts out 80+ comics a month. There are some visual stinkers in that pile, just like every other comic book company. Not enough good artists to go around.

[TheFerg714]

Actually what he said was “except for a few names we don't observe differences in sales due do the artist name”, that's totally different from your ”paraphrases“ and doesn't imply efforts to not invest in artistic talent. Marvel has lot of great artists,

This is what he said:

There are fewer artists that impact sales than there are writers, Alonso said, and they’re harder to promote. "It's harder to pop artists these days," he said. "There is no apparatus out there. There is no Wizard Magazine out there that told you who the hot top 10 were. We don't have that anymore. We can hype our artists all we want, but I don't know if we know how many artists, besides maybe McNiven and Coipel, absolutely move the needle on anything to be drawn.

The problem people had with this statement was that it's just silly and wrong. Artists DO move the needle. Erica Henderson (as much as I hate to admit it), Skottie Young, Steve Lieber, Rafael Albuquerque, Dustin Nguyen, Sean Philips, Chris Samnee, Fiona Staples, Jamie McKelvie, Stjepan Sejic, Jason Fabok, Cliff Chiang, Sana Takeda, Greg Capullo, Sean Murphy, Russell Dauterman, Ethan Van Sciver, Rafa Sandoval, Nick Derington, Mitch Gerads, Nicola Scott, Jock, Christian Ward, Clayton Crain, Tomas Giorello, Mico Suayan, and Lewis LaRosa (just to name a few) are all huge draws and actively bring new readers. It's 100% Marvel's fault if it's artists aren't "moving the needle" like they would want them to, just ask DC, Image, and Valiant.

Hell, DC's next big publishing initiative is centered around artists.

Personally, I think that statement (and simply the art that Marvel publishes) shows that Marvel obviously doesn't invest too much money into artists.

it's the average American comics reader that believes that good artist means hyper realistic plastic-y Mc Niven clone that's the problem.

Is this true? What other artists, that are popular right now, would you consider to be "hyper realistic plastic-y McNiven clones"?

[johnnybourbon]

Actually what he said was “except for a few names we don't observe differences in sales due do the artist name”, that's totally different from your ”paraphrases“ and doesn't imply efforts to not invest in artistic talent. Marvel has lot of great artists, it's the average American comics reader that believes that good artist means hyper realistic plastic-y Mc Niven clone that's the problem.

THIS "I don’t know if we know how many artists, besides maybe McNiven and Coipel, absolutely move the needle on anything to be drawn." Is the statement I was referring to, and even the quickest Google search will bring up numerous articles, artists and writers interpreting that statement as marginalizing the impact of the artist.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04...t-move-needle/

And thank you for speaking on behalf of American comic readers, I had mistakenly been under the impression that people appreciated artists like Sienkiewicz, Kubert, Phillips, Lee, Byrne, Miller, Ward etc. But you are right, needs more plastic.

[DJ1107]

A large number of reasons. While there have been good titles in Marvel over the years & there still are there's just too many things wrong with the company that made me stop supporting the comics (I'll gladly take the Cinematic Universe over the comics nowadays). To make it simple here's a list

-The fanbase sucks. They all do especially with the recent climate change. Every one of them & I'm not afraid to say that. DC has it's share of negative nancies & cynics but I can ignore them easy & they Don't have a sub fanbase ready to pull the Nazi card every fucking time the company does something with their faves.

-No sense of progression nor learning anything with these characters. This is pretty much the biggest issue I have with Marvel right now. None of these characters get any development nor permanent changes over the last 5 years. Superman get's to have a loving wife & son while Spider-man's marriage & family life is only relegated to Non-Canon series & he's still stuck in square 4 in terms of character for his canon series. Hank Pym is never allowed to grow past smacking Wasp or creating Ultron despite several years where he has because "infamous drama". Quicksilver is still written like a douchebag despite several years where he's supposedly gotten better in personality but nope. Captain America still hasn't made any progression in his personal life. How long until the X-men go to war with another super team instead working together to solve the problem? The list goes on. You want to be progressive Marvel? The meaning is a lot more then giving a black kid spider-powers or a turning a character gay Make your characters people again.

-The Current heads need to go. Stop thinking being controversial is the only way to keep you popular you can be so much better than that, Keep your writers off twitter because they sure as hell don't make things better. Mark Waid I love you but stop pretending that in order for you to stay good with ignorant that you're going to beat up an just-as ignorant ass for saying stupid ****, Everybody hates Champions, let it die & get back to writing good books again. Bendis Your days as Marvel's Golden boy are done. Stick to 2 books because you're talent stretches far to thin when you're on 5. Dan Slott stop being a daft dingus & leave Spider-man you've exhausted everything you could do with the character & his mythos & you're just on the book out of spite while the title people praise you for is stuck in limbo with Allred running to DC to get a meal on his table. & for godsakes hire writers who actually give a **** about comics instead of giving to people to appease tumblrite. Also Gerry Duggan.....You just keep doing what you do.

-No point in loving any next gen hero

-Too many events.

-Overpriced books

[Carabas]

The problem people had with this statement was that it's just silly and wrong. Artists DO move the needle. Erica Henderson (as much as I hate to admit it), Skottie Young, Steve Lieber, Rafael Albuquerque, Dustin Nguyen, Sean Philips, Chris Samnee, Fiona Staples, Jamie McKelvie, Stjepan Sejic, Jason Fabok, Cliff Chiang, Sana Takeda, Greg Capullo, Sean Murphy, Russell Dauterman, Ethan Van Sciver, Rafa Sandoval, Nick Derington, Mitch Gerads, Nicola Scott, Jock, Christian Ward, Clayton Crain, Tomas Giorello, Mico Suayan, and Lewis LaRosa (just to name a few) are all huge draws and actively bring new readers. It's 100% Marvel's fault if it's artists aren't "moving the needle" like they would want them to, just ask DC, Image, and Valiant.

You have something to back that up beyond your own personal buying habits I presume?

[TheFerg714]

You have something to back that up beyond your own personal buying habits I presume?

The point is that Marvel doesn't have evidence for the opposite. I listed out several artists who either a) have popular books out already, b) get a lot of critical acclaim, or c) have their own fanbases online.

[Somecrazyaussie]

The point is that Marvel doesn't have evidence for the opposite. I listed out several artists who either a) have popular books out already, b) get a lot of critical acclaim, or c) have their own fanbases online.

Not enough from these first round of issues is enticing me to pick up the books. In fact, this is a bit of a jumping off point for me. Plus I am disgusted with the over orders retailers needed to get the lenticular issues. My comic book dealer here in Australia only got in the lenticular covers. Mostly because everyone (especially those who have been round the block and aren't captivated by the shiny covers) asked for them. He has to sell them at $15AUS just to break even. I am only grabbing them because I don't want him stuck with excess stock.

Also, the lenticular covers are, and I am sorry to say this, **** in my opinion. You need to close one eye to even make out the covers. Plus the stock used is below par. Especially when compared to DC.

[Carabas]

The point is that Marvel doesn't have evidence for the opposite. I listed out several artists who either a) have popular books out already, b) get a lot of critical acclaim, or c) have their own fanbases online.

Have you considered the fact that these artists tend to work with fan-favourite writers most of the time?

[Somecrazyaussie]

A large number of reasons. While there have been good titles in Marvel over the years & there still are there's just too many things wrong with the company that made me stop supporting the comics (I'll gladly take the Cinematic Universe over the comics nowadays). To make it simple here's a list

-The fanbase sucks. They all do especially with the recent climate change. Every one of them & I'm not afraid to say that. DC has it's share of negative nancies & cynics but I can ignore them easy & they Don't have a sub fanbase ready to pull the Nazi card every fucking time the company does something with their faves.

-No sense of progression nor learning anything with these characters. This is pretty much the biggest issue I have with Marvel right now. None of these characters get any development nor permanent changes over the last 5 years. Superman get's to have a loving wife & son while Spider-man's marriage & family life is only relegated to Non-Canon series & he's still stuck in square 4 in terms of character for his canon series. Hank Pym is never allowed to grow past smacking Wasp or creating Ultron despite several years where he has because "infamous drama". Quicksilver is still written like a douchebag despite several years where he's supposedly gotten better in personality but nope. Captain America still hasn't made any progression in his personal life. How long until the X-men go to war with another super team instead working together to solve the problem? The list goes on. You want to be progressive Marvel? The meaning is a lot more then giving a black kid spider-powers or a turning a character gay Make your characters people again.

-The Current heads need to go. Stop thinking being controversial is the only way to keep you popular you can be so much better than that, Keep your writers off twitter because they sure as hell don't make things better. Mark Waid I love you but stop pretending that in order for you to stay good with ignorant that you're going to beat up an just-as ignorant ass for saying stupid ****, Everybody hates Champions, let it die & get back to writing good books again. Bendis Your days as Marvel's Golden boy are done. Stick to 2 books because you're talent stretches far to thin when you're on 5. Dan Slott stop being a daft dingus & leave Spider-man you've exhausted everything you could do with the character & his mythos & you're just on the book out of spite while the title people praise you for is stuck in limbo with Allred running to DC to get a meal on his table. & for godsakes hire writers who actually give a **** about comics instead of giving to people to appease tumblrite. Also Gerry Duggan.....You just keep doing what you do.

-No point in loving any next gen hero

-Too many events.

-Overpriced books

I agree with most of this. I am not saying Marvel isn't doing fantastic stuff, because they are. However these are few and far between. Most of their other product seems too cookie cutter and paint by the numbers for me lately. Which is a shame. I would like to follow more Marvel. I just don't see a solid reason to justify doing so at the moment. if others are enjoying it, I am glad for them. Kind of jealous as I really wish I could join them.

- Marvel needs to thin the herd. They are just putting out far too much and the talent is really spread thin.
- The creative talent needs a shake up. Yes, I know I run the risk of people saying, "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic." But change is as good as a holiday.
- The prices are becoming really ridiculous. If DC hadn't done Rebirth, I reckon we would be looking at a line wide USD$4.99 price point.
- Opinions are subjective. I believe Bendis isn't as "fresh" a writer as he used to be. I just feel his talents aren't focused where they should be. Defenders is a testament to the fact the man is in his element doing crime/street level stuff.

[blanchett]

false premise.

trolling.

Em no actually. I was genuinely interested in other peoples reasons. My issues are pretty much squarely X-Men related. I think if I support non X-Men books they willl go away like the FF did. The fact that the Lego game is coming out and has over 200 characters and not one X-Men character is telling. Likewise MVC. It shows that things haven't really changed.

The publishing division needs the X-Men right now so they are supporting them. If they could make the Inhumans a thing the X-Men would have went the way of the FF, replaced by a MCU property. The Guardians totally replaced the FF.

Other things like annoy me are cancellations, crossoveritis, and relaunches but I can stomach them if it wasn't for the issues with the X-Men.

Right now I am not even willing to try outside the X-Line. I didn't feel like this five years ago. I think there has been a rapid decline in Marvel's relationship with their audience.

Unfortunately I don't think they are really addressing it. They need to be unified in all divisions such as publishing, tv, games, merchandise etc. I am not seeing that.

I think the issue generally with the fanbase being too sensitive about stories is also true. The reaction to Cap being a nazi was ridiculous, CLEARLY was going to be undone in story but I don't think it's reflective of comic book fans generally. I think it's society.

[TheFerg714]

Have you considered the fact that these artists tend to work with fan-favourite writers most of the time?

What's your point? Of course they're paired with good writers, but my point is that artists can help sell a book. Marvel's idea is that they almost never help, except for in rare occurrences.

If artists didn't matter, you'd start to see mediocre art in every comic (which Marvel is trying it's darndest to accomplish). If good art didn't matter, Greg Capullo would be replaced by a cheaper artist on Dark Nights and Aquaman would've never got Stjepan Sejic on board.

[SignorMiracolo]

Em no actually. I was genuinely interested in other peoples reasons. My issues are pretty much squarely X-Men related. I think if I support non X-Men books they willl go away like the FF did. The fact that the Lego game is coming out and has over 200 characters and not one X-Men character is telling. Likewise MVC. It shows that things haven't really changed.

The publishing division needs the X-Men right now so they are supporting them. If they could make the Inhumans a thing the X-Men would have went the way of the FF, replaced by a MCU property. The Guardians totally replaced the FF.

Other things like annoy me are cancellations, crossoveritis, and relaunches but I can stomach them if it wasn't for the issues with the X-Men.

Right now I am not even willing to try outside the X-Line. I didn't feel like this five years ago. I think there has been a rapid decline in Marvel's relationship with their audience.

Unfortunately I don't think they are really addressing it. They need to be unified in all divisions such as publishing, tv, games, merchandise etc. I am not seeing that.

Really, it's not like you believe. X-Men, or the FF, are not in video games because Marvel gets more money licensing other properties they have complete control of. While with comics, they keep all the money.

Even if Inhumans were successful, they would have not replaced the X-Men. It makes no sense. A company doesn't throw money away because they make money elsewhere, they just keep ALL the money. No one in the finance or marketing department would allow that. To think that because “we make money with product B than we can throw away the money product A gives us" is a totally flawed logic that has no place in business. What happens if product B stops being successful? Do you really think a big corporation doesn't think about these things? Also, every business is expected to grow, not to being stable. The idea that they would stop to put out a successful product is science-fiction. I never see one of those so-called news websites that pushed this conspiracy theory address this simple fact, why do you think they didn't?

FF have been put in stasis because they weren't working, and the top of the company didn't want to offer any synergy to Fox. I think the fact that the movie seemed to be already doomed before its debut also played a part. In fact, they are eventually coming back, despite there is no sign at all of movie rights reverting to them.

If one would try to see things logically, would realize facts are against these conspiracy theories. An increased output of Deadpool related comics at the same time of the Deadpool movie. Doesn't work with the “Marvel want to shut down all the properties he can't make movies with” conspiracy theory. Old Man Logan came back at the same time of Old Man Logan the movie. Doesn't work with the “Marvel want to shut down all the properties he can't make movies with” conspiracy theory. Venom resurgence just when a Venom movie seems to be confirmed. Doesn't work with the “Marvel want to shut down all the properties he can't make movies with” conspiracy theory. A new Gambit series announced when a release date is announced for a Gambit movie. Doesn't work with the “Marvel want to shut down all the properties he can't make movies with” conspiracy theory. The foreshadowed return of the FF despite no news of the movie rights returning to Marvel. Doesn't work with the “Marvel want to shut down all the properties he can't make movies with” conspiracy theory.

[SignorMiracolo]

What's your point? Of course they're paired with good writers, but my point is that artists can help sell a book. Marvel's idea is that they almost never help, except for in rare occurrences.

If artists didn't matter, you'd start to see mediocre art in every comic (which Marvel is trying it's darndest to accomplish). If good art didn't matter, Greg Capullo would be replaced by a cheaper artist on Dark Nights and Aquaman would've never got Stjepan Sejic on board.

Marvel (Alonso) said that their data (not “ideas”) showed that generally artists don't make a sensible difference in the sales of their books. It's totally different than to say that artists don't matter. It's amazing to me that one is unable to see the difference between these two statements. Your “point is that artists can help sell a book” is based on what? The fact that most super hero books historically sell in the same ballpark despite of the artist? The fact that historically when big artists are put on minor characters/books they don't actually help sales? Did Jim Lee help Suicide Squad become an hit? Have Deadpool ever needed big name artists to sell? Nope. But just wait to see how the new books with new characters will perform. The bet there is the big name artists will help the books. Let's see what happens. I have already a clear idea myself.

Regarding the quality of current Marvel artists, I can only say that's very sad that American super hero comics readers still seem to think that “good quality art” equals to a single, realistic, mainstream style. But it's always been like that, so I am not surprised. Obviously, for everyone whose tastes are not so limited, really everyone that loves comics outside the small niche of American super hero comics readers, it's the same than to say that the only good movies are the ones similar to Michael Bay's Transformers.

[TheFerg714]

Marvel (Alonso) said that their data (not “ideas”) showed that generally artists don't make a sensible difference in the sales of their books. It's totally different than to say that artists don't matter. It's amazing to me that one is unable to see the difference between these two statements.

I think johnnybourbon put it best when he said, "even the quickest Google search will bring up numerous articles, artists and writers interpreting that statement as marginalizing the impact of the artist."
I'm not the only one claiming that Marvel doesn't care about artists that much. Regardless of how anyone wants to construe Alonso's statements, it pretty clearly shows that artists aren't a priority at Marvel.

Your “point is that artists can help sell a book” is based on what? The fact that most super hero books historically sell in the same ballpark despite of the artist? The fact that historically when big artists are put on minor characters/books they don't actually help sales? Did Jim Lee help Suicide Squad become an hit? Have Deadpool ever needed big name artists to sell? Nope. But just wait to see how the new books with new characters will perform. The bet there is the big name artists will help the books. Let's see what happens. I have already a clear idea myself.

Ok, first of all DC's New Age of Heroes is going to destroy Legacy. Just sayin.
Secondly, the best example I can find of a new artist helping a book is Sejic on Aquaman. Sales only slightly went up when he jumped on, but they've actually been steadily rising since #26. That almost never happens with ongoings at this high of a number.

Regarding the quality of current Marvel artists, I can only say that's very sad that American super hero comics readers still seem to think that “good quality art” equals to a single, realistic, mainstream style. But it's always been like that, so I am not surprised. Obviously, for everyone whose tastes are not so limited, really everyone that loves comics outside the small niche of American super hero comics readers, it's the same than to say that the only good movies are the ones similar to Michael Bay's Transformers.

This is the most strawmanniest strawman I've ever heard.

I already asked you earlier, "What other artists, that are popular right now, would you consider to be "hyper realistic plastic-y McNiven clones"?"

So what's your answer? Exactly what artists are you talking about that are the equivalent of Bay's Transformers?

[Spidey5640]

I went with Just bad stories but that covers a lot of the other options as well to include crossovers, continuity issues, replacing popular characters and the diversity push...and before I get roasted over that last one I'm not against diversity but Marvel has done an incredibly bad job at it, forcing it on the readership just for the sake of it, not finding better ways to incorporate into stories and characters.
Marvel has a lot of problems but I still but 4-5 titles a month.