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  1. #151
    Mighty Member Valamist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    With Marvel's blatant misuse of social media in recent years the line between fans and the creative talent has blurred. More often than not you have Marvel staff leading the charge with accusations of racism and sexism, Marvel's supports see this happening and feel validating in their own aggressive rhetoric. To them Moon Girl isn't a character worth supporting, she's just cannon fodder in this endless culture war Marvel has started-up. The petty arguments about the sudden importance of this 'smartest person in the world' list is just more pointless drama from a company that has long since lost its focus.
    May one ask, what are these 'official' misuses of social media you keep accusing Marvel of doing? Because I am sorry, but it just sounds like you have a grudge against some of Marvels practices and are trying to make it out as some sort of attack on fandom. Also, whats wrong if staff do call out racists/sexist behavior? Because lets not pretend that all criticism given to staff on twitter is polite, constrictive criticism. They do get messages of hate and ridicules slurs, and frankly I think they should speak out if they are getting such crap. Sod this 'Oh have a backbone!' style of thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    It's not that hard to separate the views of freelancers from official company statements. It's just that some fans refuse to do so because it feeds their feelings of victimhood... "Marvel is at war with it's fans!" And what's so political about a little girl genius?
    Gotta agree with this. I mean, this situation just feels so... silly! Do people really look at Moon Girl and see her as an attack against them? Really? Its times like that people should just remember that these are comic books...

  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    As I said earlier in this thread, there is far more to intelligence then Marvel's vague notion of 'super science'. Burn the list, promote the best of Marvel's existing heroines, don't waste time elevating Moon Girl above her limited achievements as an 8-year old. What about somebody like Emma Frost instead? Granted, she's technically not a X-Men (at the moment) but Emma Frost's political insights and good educational background should make her more than a match for Riri or Nadia, to say nothing of the naive Moon Girl.
    So you see not a single thing wrong with Marvel being full of men who are both super-scientists and superheroes, while having no women who fill that same niche? You think it is perfectly OK for women to be completely omitted from an entire type of character? This is something you think is normal, natural, and even positive?

    Because, dude, that is sexist. When women aren't allowed to occupy the same spaces men do, that is sexism. Literally, that is sexism. And, for 50 years, Marvel has had spaces that men fill that women were just not allowed into. Most relevant to this thread, they allowed men to be both super-scientists and superheroes. To fight crime, and to use their understanding of science to help them fight crime. To fight crime, and then go back to their lab. That is a space men have occupied. It is a space that Marvel has not had any women be allowed to occupy. In Marvel, women could be in either the super-science space, or the superhero space, but they were not allowed to occupy the space men did of being both.

    Marvel's lack of female super-scientist superheroes is, and has always been, sexist. It was an omission born of sexism. Defending that omission is defending sexism. Because it is saying that women should not be allowed to be equal to men. They're not equal right now. They're just not. Because they are not allowed to do what men do. They are not allowed to put on a costume, beat up bad guys, and then head to a lab to study what they found. They can put on a costume. They can go to the lab. They can't do both. They can't. Marvel has never allowed them to do both. Because of sexism.

    This isn't complicated. This is really, really simple. Marvel's lack of female super-scientist superheroes is sexist. And sexism is bad. And that sexist history needs to be brought to an end. And defending that sexist history is defending sexism, and is, itself, sexist.

  3. #153
    Astonishing Member dzub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valamist View Post
    Gotta agree with this. I mean, this situation just feels so... silly! Do people really look at Moon Girl and see her as an attack against them? Really? Its times like that people should just remember that these are comic books...
    Well yeah..getting worked up on Who's the smartest in a Comic Book is silly...both sides of the Moon Girl coin.


    we all know it's doom
    What we used to call life has very little worth these days. Welcome to the very edge.
    --Prince Namor (Earth-616)

  4. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by dzub View Post
    Well yeah..getting worked up on Who's the smartest in a Comic Book is silly...both sides of the Moon Girl coin.


    we all know it's doom
    Stilt-Man beats all. No one can match the sheer genius of stilts.

  5. #155
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzub View Post
    Well yeah..getting worked up on Who's the smartest in a Comic Book is silly...both sides of the Moon Girl coin.


    we all know it's doom
    And Doom supports young female supergeniuses : Valeria, Nadia and even Riri know that!

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzub View Post
    Well yeah..getting worked up on Who's the smartest in a Comic Book is silly...both sides of the Moon Girl coin.


    we all know it's doom
    Lol...it's a pretty silly discussion in all honesty.

    Definitely not something to get worked up about.

  7. #157
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Yeah I also remember an early story where the FF needed Hank Pyms help when they were shrunk by Doom. Unfortunately nowadays things are worse and a supergenius seems to be an expert in all fields, it's especially bad with Reed. Like when this crap happened between Reed and Hank:

    I see Cassie Lang wasn't happy about that either. She sees Hank as an uncle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Colossus1980 View Post
    You know what was unbelievable bullshit? Marvel made a recent list of the smartest people on earth and it had 4 GIRLS, not one single adult WOMAN on that fucken list! If memory serves me quickly, it was two girls under 10(MG and Val) and two teens(RiRi and Nadia). Seriously, WTF? NO ADULT WOMEN? 4 KIDS? Has Marvel become a Shojo company?

    There was a thread on this and I'm not going to search for it. Quite honestly I don't give a SHIT about the list, but c'mon Marvel, use some ADULT WOMEN. And there were no boys or male teens in that list.
    Yeah, Mockingbird should be on that list. She's smart enough to have been called upon in All-New Wolverine and I suspect that new job she mentioned in Amazing Spider-Man will be at Pym Labs, as she was already assisting Nadia's GIRL organisation there, as a mentor.

    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    But I think that's where your going off and reaching a different conclusion. Why are little girls being put in the roles of super geniuses/scientists? Why aren't we getting grown women in those roles instead is a more valid question?

    There may be an answer. Maybe they thought it would affect credibility to have these adult woman who have been around for so long have this great expertise but it would just make more sense if they started pushing Polaris, Alyssa Moy, Mockingbird etc in those roles because they adults.

    If I remember correctly Mockingbird was consulted in the All New Wolverine series about a strain of bacteria that had come to earth...was that Mockingbird?
    Yeah, she even had her "ask me about my feminist agenda" t-shirt on in that story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Reminder that the "who's smarter" thing was started in the first place by fans, such as the ones on this board, who have spent decades arguing over whether Banner was smarter than Stark and how T'Challa and Pym matched up and all that stuff. Fans have spent decades debating that, and creating their own lists of the smartest people. And now those fans want to cry foul and declare such comparisons stupid now that girls are being included.

    But OK, let's talk adult women. Toni Ho. She's an adult woman. So would anyone object to Toni Ho becoming the new Tony Stark? Or is someone going to argue that she's not actually a super-genius either and she hasn't invented anything and she's definitely not on the same level as Stark? Anyone? Anyone want to shit on her, too? Or can we all agree that she, at least, should get a new superhero identity and join the Avengers on missions, fighting villains and also using her scientific expertise to solve problems? Is that something we can all support? Or does anyone want to argue why she should be dismissed the same way people are trying to dismiss Nadia and Riri?
    Definitely a good point there. She did actually invent a gadget that stabilised Roberto da Costa's Sunspot powers while the two were prisoners of Hydra with no proper resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Except Sue and Janet aren't scientists. They were introduced when the two main goals of women were marriage and modeling, at least according to the men of the time. So they didn't get to be scientists.

    And in all the decades since, Marvel has continually failed to introduce female characters who were both scientists and superheroes. So now, we get today. And Marvel just finds it easier in general to introduce new characters who are young.

    I want Lunella, Nadia and Riri to stick around, and be allowed to be shown among other super-genius heroes. I want Toni Ho to get a new superheroic identity. I want Tilda to still be alive, still Nighthawk, fighting crime while also getting to work in a lab. I want Marvel to have a female equivalent to Hank Pym. Because, for 50 years, they never bothered to come up with one.
    Yeah. Janet's actually a fashion designer, and nowadays, a businesswoman, owning both her own boutique and Hank's tech firm, Pym Laboratories. Sue was secretly a SHIELD agent, but Reed thought she was a housewife. She'll need a new job when she comes back, now that SHIELD is gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Yeah, they should bring her and Redwolf(?) back. Hawkeye could use some friends, and maybe that could get them into other books.

    Also, I don't want hero titles being passed around so easily, so Iron Man=Tony, but let's get more women as superhero/technical experts.
    Red Wolf will appear alongside Hawkeye in Avengers: No Surrender. The name Occupy Avengers was mentioned in the solicits so it's possible Tilda and Wheels will show up as well.

  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Lorna never uses her geo-physics education for anything, and is certainly never depicted as a super-scientist. Same with Shanna. Emma being a cyberneticist hasn't come up since she stopped being a villain. Heather Hudson is from another reality, so doesn't really count for the purposes of this discussion. (There's actually plenty of female super-scientists in alternate realities. But since none of them are in the 616, it's a moot point.)


    Moira and Rao have gone in the field, sure, but they're not superheroes. MJ beat up Chameleon once, it doesn't make her a superhero. They're civilians who occasionally get dragged along on adventures. But at the end of the day, they're still civilians.

    Which is my point: Marvel only allows female geniuses to be either civilians or villains. It's a long-standing trend. In fact, even when a female genius villain turns good, guess what happens? Their scientific side gets underplayed. Moondragon was introduced as a science-based villain, Madame Menace. When she changed to Moondragon instead, and as she moved more towards heroism, she made less and less use of her scientific expertise. She had access to advanced technology, but she wasn't using science to solve problems. Same with Emma Frost. Even Tilda Johnson, when she turned away from being a villain in Nighthawk, was turned into civilian tech support. (She became the new Nighthawk at the end of Occupy Avengers. Right before she was implied to die in a battle against Hydra.) Shit, USAvengers spent the past year with Toni Ho as a super-science-superhero, but she's decided to abandon the armour, so hey! She's back to being just a civilian, too! And Ewing is someone who actually makes an effort to to be aware of problematic tropes and trends! (And no, Monica still wasn't shown as a super-genius under Ewing. She's smart, no question, and she's been picking up plenty of stuff from Adam. But she's not a super-genius. She's not inventing stuff, she's coming up with strategies.)

    Male genius heroes are allowed to create. Female genius heroes aren't. They're not allowed to invent gadgets. They're not allowed to figure out how alien technology works. They're not allowed to cure diseases. They're not allowed to do any of the things male genius heroes are.

    And when Marvel finally - FINALLY - has female heroes who actually use science to solve problems, people immediately bitch and moan and put the characters down. Try to dismiss them entirely. Try to downplay their genius, by suggesting that they're not actually super-geniuses. Screw that noise. They're goddamn super-geniuses, and it's about damn time, and Marvel cannot allow them to just fall by the wayside. It is imperative that Marvel continue to make use of these characters as genius heroes who provide the brains on teams, and who provide scientific support for other heroes, and who are included when groups of geniuses gather to work on a way to beat the latest threat. It's 20-frigging-17, Marvel can't just keep doing the same tired bullshit where only men can be both super-scientists and superheroes, and women are forced to choose one or the other. It's a trend that needs to die a fiery death and be done away with forever.
    Honestly thats probably because they didn't work at it. Don't get me wrong there is some sexism towards these girls but some of the hate with current marvel is that their new pet characters feel unearned.

    Reed, Tony etc didn't become the ultimate genius all at once. They had decades to get to that point. I remember when Tony wasn't so smart and needed a computer expert to help with his suit every now and then before inventing the cure for cancer. I remember Reed asking other experts in their field was help in past issues. It makes sense that in their experience over time the geniuses were able to pick up on things here and there to be the super geniuses they are here.

    That crap just isn't earned with girls like Riri or Lunella. It's like that Generations issue where all the future heroes were gushing over Riri.. like ok, why is she so great? We are never told that. Just that she is great and better than anyone. It all feels forced and unearned.

  9. #159
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valamist View Post
    Gotta agree with this. I mean, this situation just feels so... silly! Do people really look at Moon Girl and see her as an attack against them? Really? Its times like that people should just remember that these are comic books...
    You know what? You're absolutely right about that. These are JUST comic books. The purpose of comic books is to entertain, escape from reality for a bit. It's not about teaching social lessons, it's not about enlighten people as to the injustices of the world or preach for a new social order. Entertainment, nothing more.

    If there are side effects, good for them. But that's not the purpose of the thing. Sometimes reading these threads, I start to think that people are under the impression that the comic book industry is there to teach a lesson, to enlighten the masses or to somehow make the world a better place for all.

    Are you entertained by the stories? Yes? Then their job is done. If you're not, try something else. Simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Yeah, Mockingbird should be on that list. She's smart enough to have been called upon in All-New Wolverine and I suspect that new job she mentioned in Amazing Spider-Man will be at Pym Labs, as she was already assisting Nadia's GIRL organisation there, as a mentor.

    Definitely a good point there. She did actually invent a gadget that stabilised Roberto da Costa's Sunspot powers while the two were prisoners of Hydra with no proper resources.
    Those things have been pushed recently. Before I'd say two years ago, I didn't even know Mockingbird was anything else than a SHIELD agent and a superhero, and I've read the entirety of the WCA. I have never been shown before that she was anything else than that. I would call that a retcon of a sort, but that's just my personal opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Yeah. Janet's actually a fashion designer, and nowadays, a businesswoman, owning both her own boutique and Hank's tech firm, Pym Laboratories. Sue was secretly a SHIELD agent, but Reed thought she was a housewife. She'll need a new job when she comes back, now that SHIELD is gone.
    There you go: superhero AND businesswoman, just like Tony Stark. Why does the argument go only for science? I don't see a male character that's a superhero AND a fashion designer, and I don't yell sexism. Where are the male nurses AND superheroes? Or the secretary AND superhero? Come on, the list could go on for ever... I just don't see why it's so important to have the female version of every male superheroe. I like Janet exactly because she's like no one else, man or woman. And at the end of the day, if I were a superhero in need of a science buff, I'd call Reed or Tony or Pym. Certainly not a child. Oh wait... they're dead/MIA! How convenient...

  10. #160
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    I think it was worth, if only to see all the agitated over-the-top reactions by a part of the fandom.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    There you go: superhero AND businesswoman, just like Tony Stark. Why does the argument go only for science? I don't see a male character that's a superhero AND a fashion designer, and I don't yell sexism. Where are the male nurses AND superheroes? Or the secretary AND superhero? Come on, the list could go on for ever... I just don't see why it's so important to have the female version of every male superheroe. I like Janet exactly because she's like no one else, man or woman. And at the end of the day, if I were a superhero in need of a science buff, I'd call Reed or Tony or Pym. Certainly not a child. Oh wait... they're dead/MIA! How convenient...
    I don't think you really understand the argument. Probably because your thoughts are quite sexist, even if maybe you don't realize it. HINT: you seem to think being a genius (ie. being smart) is “a job”, and that being smart or a scientist something than when it's applied to a woman character is akin to making a female versions of a male super hero.

    The issue here is quite simple, and I will bolden for you: Nobody is talking about JOBS or PROFESSION. The issue is that,
    for the GREAT MAJORITY
    of their existence, super hero comics have always picked males when it came to have a smart / genius / scientist character, obviously reflecting the bias of the society of their time and their readers. It's amazing to me that someone could think the issue is “having a female versions of male super hero”. It's like thinking that a female scientist or genius is the female version of a scientist or genius. Probably you think a female should work as a secretary or a nurse, and not as a scientist, your words clearly imply that. But history and society have shown already how wrong you are, there are tons of female geniuses and scientists, and it's only normal that any creative medium reflects the reality of the world. Why not have black people only feature as slaves in comics? Do we really need the black version of very free white person?
    Last edited by SignorMiracolo; 10-24-2017 at 08:29 AM.

  12. #162
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SignorMiracolo View Post
    I don't think you really understand the argument. Probably because your thoughts are quite sexist, even if maybe you don't realize it. HINT: you seem to think being a genius (ie. being smart) is “a job”, and that being smart or a scientist something than when it's applied to a woman character is akin to making a female versions of a male super hero.

    The issue here is quite simple, and I will bolden for you: Nobody is talking about JOBS or PROFESSION. The issue is that,
    for the GREAT MAJORITY
    of their existence, super hero comics have always picked males when it came to have a smart / genius / scientist character, obviously reflecting the bias of the society of their time and their readers. It's amazing to me that someone could think the issue is “having a female versions of male super hero”. It's like thinking that a female scientist or genius is the female version of a scientist or genius. Probably you think a female should work as a secretary or a nurse, and not as a scientist, your words clearly imply that. But history and society have shown already how wrong you are, there are tons of female geniuses and scientists, and it's only normal that any creative medium reflects the reality of the world. Why not have black people only feature as slaves in comics? Do we really need the black version of very free white person?
    Wo there... that's quite a lot of assumptions you make on my case.

    First, thank you for talking to me like I was a retarded 10-year-old. This really helps the points you are yourself trying to make. Since, you know... I AM a woman and I AM a scientist. I graduated at the top of my class, I have three science college degrees, have been working in the science field for about 20 years, I have been a teacher and a clinical lab instructor. And I can assure you I am in no way sexist. I believe in equality for all.

    I agree with you, the majority of scientists/geniuses in Marvel have traditionally been males, as you say probably due to the bias from society at the time they were created. I do believe a lot of the arguments people have made have either gone over your head or you dismissed them because it didn't suit your own argumentation. From a lot of people's perspective, it DOES feel as though Marvel has decided to "make a female version of male geniuses" (or in some cases "replaced"). It does LOOK like it. Whether it's the case or not remains to be seen, and we might never know for sure.

    And as for the "female version of a male superhero" bit... I was under the impression this is what Tiamatty wanted: (post #112 on page 8)
    My point wasn't about Stark being replaced. My point was about having a woman who fills the same kind of role that Stark or Pym fill. Because Marvel doesn't have that. They have no female equivalent to Stark or Pym. They don't have female super-geniuses who can put on a costume and punch bad guys, and then go back to their lab to analyze the mysterious alien device they found.
    At the end of the day, I don't care if they make more female scientists in the MU. As long as it's not crapping on the established heroes, or replacing them, or making them look like idiots just to show how the newcomer is better than them. As for myself, I know my worth, I don't need a comic book to show me I can do something. Ultimately, what I wish for little girls is to know you can follow your dreams no matter what they are, whether you want to be a doctor, an artist, a chef, a make-up artist, an archeologist, a teacher, an athlete, or whatever you can dream of.

  13. #163
    Ghost Panther Marvell2100's Avatar
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    This thread is a definite argument for more female geniuses in comics. People are overreacting that a minority teenage girl is considered by Marvel as the smartest person in the world.

    It hasn't hurt the sales or reps of any of the male geniuses in Marvel so what really is the issue here.

    Reed is still a genius, Tony is still a genius, T'Challa is still a genius, both HanKs are still geniuses etc. I don't think anyone thinks less of them if Lunella is considered smarter.

  14. #164
    Incredible Member blanchett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    This thread is a definite argument for more female geniuses in comics. People are overreacting that a minority teenage girl is considered by Marvel as the smartest person in the world.

    It hasn't hurt the sales or reps of any of the male geniuses in Marvel so what really is the issue here.

    Reed is still a genius, Tony is still a genius, T'Challa is still a genius, both HanKs are still geniuses etc. I don't think anyone thinks less of them if Lunella is considered smarter.
    I wouldn't care if she wasn't seven. Why not just big up Mockingbird, Shevaun Haldane(criminally underused female genius and great design), Polaris, Emma or turn Kavita Rao into a superhero? Or just create someone new?

    Personally I think there is will to a find something offensive. Generally I hope, people are not objecting to female geniuses at all. I think it's that she's a child. It's one of thing for her to a prodigy but billing her as the smartest person in the marvel universe just seems absurd.

    From the X-Men side though and I do understand that there is an issue with her being a civilian with some posters, Moira was the big brain they used to call on frequently. I think when she died she was the most prominent female genius and it became more of a sausage fest. The Illuminati in my opinion did not help. I hated that concept. Really made me dislike all involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Stilt-Man beats all. No one can match the sheer genius of stilts.
    All genius talks have an understood "second behind Stilt-Man" clause in them. Just like talks about who's toughest are understood to mean "second behind Squirrel Girl".

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