Does anybody want to talk about Marvel double standars? Cyclops, Cap, Prof X?

[oldscottsummers]

Double standard maybe!?
Cyclops killed one person (X) while being fully 100% possessed by the Phoenix. Namor wiped out the Wakanda capital.
I don't see any punishment or even cold shoulder toward Namor, but everyone hates Cyclops? oh well, he is Namor. He has anger issues, he is passionate.
What about Charles Xavier, the pathological liar and biggest hypocrite of them all. I can't see why everyone gives "St. Charles the infallible sacred cow" a pass. I guess mindraping X-Daddy can't do anything wrong in hero community eyes.

The whole "Cyclops was mean to Fart clowd" - led to "cyclops worse than Hitler". That's not even logical.
That is a horrible editorial nonsense.

Look at the difference how Marvel/Heros treating Steve/Hydracap and Cyclops.

We can question Scarlet Witch, Wolverine, Jean Grey, Carol Danvers, Tony Stark, Black Bolt, Medusa, Beast, Emma Frost questionable behavior but try to be OBJECTIVE

Fox doesn't seem to give a damn about Scott. I don't even think Marvel Studios would give Cyclops his due if they had the rights.
If anything Marvels treatment of Cyclops and mutants in general is a great allegory for how mutants are treated in the marvel universe.

Our boy Scott will continue to fight to protect a world ( Disney owned company) that hates and fears him.

You are not supposed to see Cyclops as being right though. The writers keep sh-g on him, telling the reader that Cyclops is an awful human being and he deserves to die.

Just thinking out loud.

[blanchett]

Honestly I am not sure I agree. I think Cyclops development across the last couple of years has actually felt earned. He had to make tough choices, compromise his morals etc. It was actual character development.

Particularly in terms of Wanda she was totally ruined as a character beyond repair. There is coming back from back genocide.

Scott killing Xavier could be argued as temporary insanity even without the Phoenix. He's literally the first person Scott ever trusted after an horrific childhood and he violated his mind, sent his brother to his death and then hid the evidence. I mean Scott killing him in a rage. He'd probably get manslaughter.

[oldscottsummers]

Honestly I am not sure I agree. I think Cyclops development across the last couple of years has actually felt earned. He had to make tough choices, compromise his morals etc. It was actual character development.

Particularly in terms of Wanda she was totally ruined as a character beyond repair. There is coming back from back genocide.

Scott killing Xavier could be argued as temporary insanity even without the Phoenix. He's literally the first person Scott ever trusted after an horrific childhood and he violated his mind, sent his brother to his death and then hid the evidence. I mean Scott killing him in a rage. He'd probably get manslaughter.

it was Self-Defense which was done by a Cyclops who needed help but was instead was attacked by his peers and family.

[XPac]

Basically, I think marvel realized somewhere along the way that Scott is just cooler when everyone hates him. He was somewhat on the boring side for a good hunk of his time, but once he became revolutionary Scott that characters started to dump on, he suddenly became a much more interesting character. So X-writers continued to run with it.

[oldscottsummers]

Basically, I think marvel realized somewhere along the way that Scott is just cooler when everyone hates him. He was somewhat on the boring side for a good hunk of his time, but once he became revolutionary Scott that characters started to dump on, he suddenly became a much more interesting character. So X-writers continued to run with it.

Marvel hates Rightclops and they're angry how each time they try to make him wrong, he just becomes more right.

[XPac]

Marvel hates Rightclops and they're angry how each time they try to make him wrong, he just becomes more right.

That's just it... I don't think they're angry about it. I think they enjoy it.

If they REALLY wanted to make him wrong, they could easily do it. They can in theory make Cyclops do anything the heck they want. If they wanted Scott to create a machine powered by the blood of orphaned babies and puppy dogs capable of conquering the world, they could. But instead they pretty much always give Cyclops a defensible enough position to where fans can credibly say he was right, or he at least had a point. THey'll have characters crop on him which in turn will get the Scott fans riled up and talking about it on the boards, which is the both desired and expected result.

It got him over in a way that he wasn't before and made him more interesting, so they kept doing it.

[XPac]

it was Self-Defense which was done by a Cyclops who needed help but was instead was attacked by his peers and family.

The Avengers and X-Men attacking Cyclops was them helping him. The way to help Scott was to drive the Phoenix out of him, and the way to do that was to beat him. We saw that with the other P5 members... beating them drives the Phoenix out of them. Sucked for Scott that he was in that position, but what can ya do.

[oldscottsummers]

The Avengers and X-Men attacking Cyclops was them helping him. The way to help Scott was to drive the Phoenix out of him, and the way to do that was to beat him. We saw that with the other P5 members... beating them drives the Phoenix out of them. Sucked for Scott that he was in that position, but what can ya do.

Ultimately, none of the qualms the Avengers have with the Phoenix make sense. The Phoenix does not randomly send its hosts on a killing spree the moment they are possessed. Jean only went mad after a psychic fucked with her brain. Even in AvX, the P5 only started getting weird after Scarlet Witch started pumping chaos magic into them, and Cyclops only got his Dark Phoenix on after a psychic attack.

[XPac]

Ultimately, none of the qualms the Avengers have with the Phoenix make sense. The Phoenix does not randomly send its hosts on a killing spree the moment they are possessed. Jean only went mad after a psychic fucked with her brain. Even in AvX, the P5 only started getting weird after Scarlet Witch started pumping chaos magic into them, and Cyclops only got his Dark Phoenix on after a psychic attack.

Given the Phoenix was literally destroying every world in it's path on the way to earth, they had a right to have qualms. We can spend all day discussing how both sides could have handled things better, but ultimately if a cosmic being destroying every world in it's path is heading towards earth, it's gonna freak a few people out.

Maybe we can partially blame Phoenix. If it didn't destroy every planet in it's path, people probably wouldn't be quite as freaked about it.

[Hizashi]

Honestly I am not sure I agree. I think Cyclops development across the last couple of years has actually felt earned. He had to make tough choices, compromise his morals etc. It was actual character development.

Particularly in terms of Wanda she was totally ruined as a character beyond repair. There is coming back from back genocide.

Scott killing Xavier could be argued as temporary insanity even without the Phoenix. He's literally the first person Scott ever trusted after an horrific childhood and he violated his mind, sent his brother to his death and then hid the evidence. I mean Scott killing him in a rage. He'd probably get manslaughter.

The point isn't that Scott's actions are completely defensible, it's that there isn't much consistency between how his actions are treated in-universe versus how the actions of others are treated in-universe.

[XPac]

The point isn't that Scott's actions are completely defensible, it's that there isn't much consistency between how his actions are treated in-universe versus how the actions of others are treated in-universe.

I think the difference between Scotts actions and Namors is that it was more personal.

Yes, Namor killed thousands of people. Thousands of nameless faceless people that the X-Men (other than Storm) don't really know. They may disapprove of Namors actions, but it's far less personal than murdering Xavier, who is the X-Mens father figure.

Yes, objectively speaking murdering thousands of people is worse than murdering one. On an intellectual level I'm sure the X-Men understand that. But if the one murdered is Xavier, then fair or not you're going to be more upset with the murder of the one than the murder of the thousands of people.

If bad guy X murdered my father, and bad guy Y murdered thousands of people in a country halfway around the world, it would be very hard for me not to be more upset with bad guy X. When you love the person that's killed, that's just how it is.

[Hizashi]

I think the difference between Scotts actions and Namors is that it was more personal.

Yes, Namor killed thousands of people. Thousands of nameless faceless people that the X-Men (other than Storm) don't really know. They may disapprove of Namors actions, but it's far less personal than murdering Xavier, who is the X-Mens father figure.

Yes, objectively speaking murdering thousands of people is worse than murdering one. On an intellectual level I'm sure the X-Men understand that. But if the one murdered is Xavier, then fair or not you're going to be more upset with the murder of the one than the murder of the thousands of people.

If bad guy X murdered my father, and bad guy Y murdered thousands of people in a country halfway around the world, it would be very hard for me not to be more upset with bad guy X. When you love the person that's killed, that's just how it is.

I guess I'm foolish for expecting adults to behave as adults.

[XPac]

I guess I'm foolish for expecting adults to behave as adults.

I wouldn't say foolish. But to assume that at least some of them wouldn't be mad at Scott over it honestly is wishful thinking.

[Tiamatty]

Honestly I am not sure I agree. I think Cyclops development across the last couple of years has actually felt earned. He had to make tough choices, compromise his morals etc. It was actual character development.

Yeah, as someone who's always loved Scott (even in the '90s cartoon!), I really enjoyed his development over the last 17 years. It started with his return after being possessed by Apocalypse, where he showed some signs of PTSD. That was where he really started to change. And at every step along the way, from then until his death, his decisions made sense. Maybe they weren't always the best decisions, but they were decisions it made sense for him to make.

When adult Scott does inevitably come back, I want him to stand by his decisions. With mutants no longer on the edge of extinction, he can mellow out, but he should stand by the decisions he made to keep the mutant race alive when things were darkest for them.

Though I'd also probably not have him return to the X-Men right away. Either a series where he's just trying to live a normal life in Alaska (and gets dragged into doing superhero stuff because he's not allowed to have nice things), or even have him join the Avengers.

[Hizashi]

Ultimately 3 things needed to be done. Firstly the Phoenix needed to be prevented from claiming Hope when it arrived for her because she wasn't properly trained for it yet. Secondly, Hope needed to be trained to properly control the Phoenix. ANd thirdly, the Phoenix needed to be driven out from the P5 so Hope could claim it. And the Avengers managed to do all those things.

I don't disagree that the Avengers didn't make their fair share of mistakes. But they also did exactly what was needed to be done, while the X-Men were inadvertently just getting in the way until they switched sides and joined them . I get that some X fans may feel that's a slap in the face or whatever, but if we're debating the events in-universe then in-universe then what the Avengers did, as ugly as it got was necessary.

As far as the Avengers paying nothing... given the Avengers ended up trying to take custody of a girl that wanted to work with them anyways, I don't think they did anything that anyone in universe is going to lose sleep over. Hope was fine being "kidnapped" as they gave her the help she couldn't get from the X-Men. All things cosidered, what happened was what needed to happen and everyone got the result they wanted.

Hope not being ready for the Phoenix was only a development because of this event. She and the X-Men were used to for the Avengers. You are giving credit to the Avengers for solving problems that wouldn't exist without them, in-universe and IRL. Nothing the Avengers did was necessary, they had no way of knowing if anything they tried would work, so why should they get credit when you claim the X-Men were just as clueless? Hope was only okay with going with the Avengers when she didn't have the Phoenix, after they attacked her people and tried to kidnap/kill her, and I'm supposed to buy she's capable of making intelligent decisions while reading AvX? Did anyone act absolutely beyond reproach? No, but the Avengers had most of the blame for the events, they don't deserve a slap on the wrist. What about all of the assaults on the X-Men (who had yet to do anything wrong), or trying to blow up a cosmic force so close to the earth?

If we talk about the writing: the event was literally the culmination of years of stories for the X-Men and Marvel handed their biggest triumph over to the Avengers, characterization and continuity be damned. Forgive me for not being happy about that.

Steves answer was that he was going to take Wanda into custody... which he actually had the authority to do since Steve at this point was top cop and Wanda was a US citizen on US soil. Ultimately Steve had the authority here, not Scott.

But it's all moot anyways since both sides ended up agreeing to just let Wanda do. I'm just saying Scott did something pretty similar. Also, note that on both occasins Cyclops shot first.

And yes seriously... ask Hope. Since she wanted to go with the Avengers anyways, that really would have simplified the situation. Steve and Scott should have given her that option, and they can both be faulted for not doing so.

And yes, she did choose to go with the Avengers because they were actually trying to deal with the problem while the X-Men were frankly just ignoring it. X-Men were truthfully a dead end. She needed real help and the Avengers were able to give it to her, And that's how the situation ended up being resolved. After preventing Phoenix from getting Hope, they train her to control the Phoenix and drive the Phoenix out of the P5. They ended up being exactly what she needed to get the Phoenix and restore the mutants.

That's ultimately why ther's not too much I can really see to complain about. They got the job done, and the mutantsl clearly benefited the MOST from the actual outcome. It's win win all around.

He used his authority to help Wanda avoid proper consequences, like a cop making an arrest go away for a family member. How is what Scott did similar? He shot first by asking for justice to be done? Or do you mean when he literally shot first because he knew that Cap had brought the Avengers to take what he wanted? How could Scott have known? He's a leader and understands how they think.

Hope was written very poorly in the event, her choosing to go with the Avengers after everything they did is just more proof of that. The Avengers tried to kill/kidnap her; Scott told her she could leave whenever she wanted. I know that someone will bring up that he ultimately didn't want to let her leave - because she was trying to leave with the Avengers who were on their second kidnapping attempt to use her against the X-Men. The Avengers weren't interested in actually giving her choices.

The big problems of the event were direct results of the Avengers' actions, do you give credit to people who clean up their own mess? No, it's expected.

Scott was thrown in a prison they knew he was likely to be killed in, detained illegally with no trial set. Win win all around.