View Poll Results: biased double standard exists in...Marvel???

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  • Yes

    31 81.58%
  • No

    6 15.79%
  • 3 option

    1 2.63%
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  1. #16
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldscottsummers View Post
    Reminder that the Avenegrs are hypocrites and Cyclops did literally nothing wrong
    Rachel has been a successful host for years.
    Cyclops' claim: Hope and the Phoenix will bring mutants back.
    End result: Hope and the Phoenix bring mutants back.
    Cyke still taking credit for new mutants popping up on earth.
    A lot of people can take credit for new mutant poppping up. It was a group effort.

    Hope obviously did the deed. Stark figured out what needed to happen. Iron Fist and Spider-Man helped train her. And Wanda in the end helped Hope release the Phoenx, which repowered the mutants. And yes, Scott championed the idea at the start. In the end everyone wanted the same thing and got what they wanted, so it all worked out for the best.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Why has marvel killed or replaced a lot of people? So they can given their legacy character a chance to shine before likely bringing them back. No one really dies in comics.

    will Scott return as Rightclops? Or ClassicClops where he is largely just a jealous and insecure asshole, who can not live without JEEEAAAANNN
    It's amazing how a fictional character consistently outsmarts real people
    It was hard enough killing him the first time. They gave up and ended up doing it off page. Then making him Hitler through propaganda.
    If they put him on page he might be unstoppable.
    Rant
    Jean really is the worst character in Marvel, isn't she?
    Scemma forever Triangle never.
    Scott needs an alpha female like Bettsy.
    What woman wouldn't be attracted to Scott? He's 100% alpha male who tells the Avengers to go f*#& themselves.
    I want cyclops back free from any ginger women to be his own man.
    Logically..
    TeenClops should have lusted for Emma & Cuckoos. Especially Stepford Cuckoos! They're teenage triplet clones of his hottest ex, how could he not be?
    End of rant

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    Honestly I am not sure I agree. I think Cyclops development across the last couple of years has actually felt earned. He had to make tough choices, compromise his morals etc. It was actual character development.

    Particularly in terms of Wanda she was totally ruined as a character beyond repair. There is coming back from back genocide.

    Scott killing Xavier could be argued as temporary insanity even without the Phoenix. He's literally the first person Scott ever trusted after an horrific childhood and he violated his mind, sent his brother to his death and then hid the evidence. I mean Scott killing him in a rage. He'd probably get manslaughter.
    The point isn't that Scott's actions are completely defensible, it's that there isn't much consistency between how his actions are treated in-universe versus how the actions of others are treated in-universe.

  4. #19
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    The point isn't that Scott's actions are completely defensible, it's that there isn't much consistency between how his actions are treated in-universe versus how the actions of others are treated in-universe.
    I think the difference between Scotts actions and Namors is that it was more personal.

    Yes, Namor killed thousands of people. Thousands of nameless faceless people that the X-Men (other than Storm) don't really know. They may disapprove of Namors actions, but it's far less personal than murdering Xavier, who is the X-Mens father figure.

    Yes, objectively speaking murdering thousands of people is worse than murdering one. On an intellectual level I'm sure the X-Men understand that. But if the one murdered is Xavier, then fair or not you're going to be more upset with the murder of the one than the murder of the thousands of people.

    If bad guy X murdered my father, and bad guy Y murdered thousands of people in a country halfway around the world, it would be very hard for me not to be more upset with bad guy X. When you love the person that's killed, that's just how it is.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The Avengers and X-Men attacking Cyclops was them helping him. The way to help Scott was to drive the Phoenix out of him, and the way to do that was to beat him. We saw that with the other P5 members... beating them drives the Phoenix out of them. Sucked for Scott that he was in that position, but what can ya do.
    He wouldn't have had that power if the Avengers had stayed out of it - they always had before. And beating the Phoenix out was the only answer? That's just poor writing, we're supposed to believe that Scott will inevitably become Dark Phoenix even if nothing happens, so the Avengers had to attack him - which led to his becoming Dark Phoenix. Scott was literally ignoring the Avengers until they attacked him.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Given the Phoenix was literally destroying every world in it's path on the way to earth, they had a right to have qualms. We can spend all day discussing how both sides could have handled things better, but ultimately if a cosmic being destroying every world in it's path is heading towards earth, it's gonna freak a few people out.

    Maybe we can partially blame Phoenix. If it didn't destroy every planet in it's path, people probably wouldn't be quite as freaked about it.
    In the same way that you have argued that Scott can be made to do literally anything Marvel wants, the Phoenix destroying worlds on the way to earth told me one thing: Marvel knew that if the Phoenix flew to earth peacefully, the readers would side with the X-Men. Even then the Avengers were basically idiots the entire time. Could Scott have handled things better? Yes. But the Avengers should take the majority of the blame for the events of AvX.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think the difference between Scotts actions and Namors is that it was more personal.

    Yes, Namor killed thousands of people. Thousands of nameless faceless people that the X-Men (other than Storm) don't really know. They may disapprove of Namors actions, but it's far less personal than murdering Xavier, who is the X-Mens father figure.

    Yes, objectively speaking murdering thousands of people is worse than murdering one. On an intellectual level I'm sure the X-Men understand that. But if the one murdered is Xavier, then fair or not you're going to be more upset with the murder of the one than the murder of the thousands of people.

    If bad guy X murdered my father, and bad guy Y murdered thousands of people in a country halfway around the world, it would be very hard for me not to be more upset with bad guy X. When you love the person that's killed, that's just how it is.
    I guess I'm foolish for expecting adults to behave as adults.

  7. #22
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Cyclops destroyed an pivotal cultural element from other species. The fact it was poison for mutants doesn't matter.
    Seriously it was weird to think than they speak a lot about the terrible thing than Cyclops did only to reveal than Cyclops destroyed one (of two) clouds. Captain America did things far worse, ditto Iron Man and Carol Marvel and theystill are revered and praised as heroes.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldscottsummers View Post
    why did Marvel kill him at the at the height of popularity?
    Koff!filmrightskoff

    This is Marvel saying we should move on from rightclops...by going right back to 05 tykecops.
    Yes, basically, they are asking that. But I doubt it will work.
    Internet Rule 14: Do not argue with trolls it means they win.

  8. #23
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    He wouldn't have had that power if the Avengers had stayed out of it - they always had before. And beating the Phoenix out was the only answer? That's just poor writing, we're supposed to believe that Scott will inevitably become Dark Phoenix even if nothing happens, so the Avengers had to attack him - which led to his becoming Dark Phoenix. Scott was literally ignoring the Avengers until they attacked him.



    In the same way that you have argued that Scott can be made to do literally anything Marvel wants, the Phoenix destroying worlds on the way to earth told me one thing: Marvel knew that if the Phoenix flew to earth peacefully, the readers would side with the X-Men. Even then the Avengers were basically idiots the entire time. Could Scott have handled things better? Yes. But the Avengers should take the majority of the blame for the events of AvX.
    Avengers staying out of it really wasn't an option though, since Hope couldn't control the Phoenix without them training her. Essentially what we got is what needed to happen. The Avengers needed to stop Phoenix from claiming Hope before she was ready (which created the P5), train Hope to control the Phoenix, then beat the Phoenix out of the P5 and into Hope.

    All that HAD to happen in order to get the Phoneix into Hope, where she can restart the mutant gene and restore mutants. Hope realized that almost immediately, it's why she left the X-Men to work with the Avengers in the first place. And why all the X-Men later joined the Avengers. It got the end result everyone wanted.

    Plus, let's be honest... it's a comic book. Stuff will naturally be resolved by heroes punching stuff.

  9. #24
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I guess I'm foolish for expecting adults to behave as adults.
    I wouldn't say foolish. But to assume that at least some of them wouldn't be mad at Scott over it honestly is wishful thinking.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I wouldn't say foolish. But to assume that at least some of them wouldn't be mad at Scott over it honestly is wishful thinking.
    I still think Marvel over did it.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Avengers staying out of it really wasn't an option though, since Hope couldn't control the Phoenix without them training her. Essentially what we got is what needed to happen. The Avengers needed to stop Phoenix from claiming Hope before she was ready (which created the P5), train Hope to control the Phoenix, then beat the Phoenix out of the P5 and into Hope.

    All that HAD to happen in order to get the Phoneix into Hope, where she can restart the mutant gene and restore mutants. Hope realized that almost immediately, it's why she left the X-Men to work with the Avengers in the first place. And why all the X-Men later joined the Avengers. It got the end result everyone wanted.

    Plus, let's be honest... it's a comic book. Stuff will naturally be resolved by heroes punching stuff.
    Yeah, it's a comic, it's only as serious as we take it.

    I really don't like the argument that without the Avengers' help Hope wouldn't have been able to control the Phoenix. I'm supposed to believe that the week or so of training she received from them was more crucial than growing up with Cable or her experiences with the X-Men? Nah, that's crap writing. Plus, the Avengers stormed Scott's home twice, assaulting children, and Hope leaves with these people? Cable, her father, told her they would try to kill her, but she trusts them over the X-Men after they did try to kill her (Wolverine is an Avenger, doesn't matter that it wasn't sanctioned) and kidnap her? And she trusts Wanda, the woman who is the cause of all of the hardships she's had to suffer, over the X-Men? How does an honest appraisal of AvX not conclude with: "This event sucks and the Avengers are clearly the bad guys."

    Is that unique to AvX? No. There are always clear bad guys in every hero vs hero event Marvel has done.

  12. #27
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Yeah, it's a comic, it's only as serious as we take it.

    I really don't like the argument that without the Avengers' help Hope wouldn't have been able to control the Phoenix. I'm supposed to believe that the week or so of training she received from them was more crucial than growing up with Cable or her experiences with the X-Men? Nah, that's crap writing. Plus, the Avengers stormed Scott's home twice, assaulting children, and Hope leaves with these people? Cable, her father, told her they would try to kill her, but she trusts them over the X-Men after they did try to kill her (Wolverine is an Avenger, doesn't matter that it wasn't sanctioned) and kidnap her? And she trusts Wanda, the woman who is the cause of all of the hardships she's had to suffer, over the X-Men? How does an honest appraisal of AvX not conclude with: "This event sucks and the Avengers are clearly the bad guys."

    Is that unique to AvX? No. There are always clear bad guys in every hero vs hero event Marvel has done.
    HOnestly I don't think there are any bad guys here. Both sides arguably made their share of msitakes, but both sides in the end came together to save the day. They put aside whatever issues they had, did what they needed to do, and everyone in the end got what they wanted.

    And yes, despite the conflict I think Hope trusted the Avengers. Everyone here are heroes. They all know that. They may disagree but in the end they all want the same thing. And it's not that Hope trusted the Avengers more than the X-Men... it's that she trusted them more than the P5. She felt something was wrong there, just like Xavier did. Just like Ice Man did after speaking to Scott for like 30 seconds. Really all the X-Men ended up turning on the P5, and really in the end that's what needed to happen. They Phoeni needed to be driven out of them and into Hope. Once everyone got on the same page in that regard, both sides got to be heroes and save the day.

    It got ugly, but ultmately it was necessary. SOmetimes you need to break a few eggs to make an omlette.

  13. #28

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    Charles Xavier gets killed for like the 8th time
    People suddenly give a shit.
    Rant
    Jean really is the worst character in Marvel, isn't she?
    Scemma forever Triangle never.
    Scott needs an alpha female like Bettsy.
    What woman wouldn't be attracted to Scott? He's 100% alpha male who tells the Avengers to go f*#& themselves.
    I want cyclops back free from any ginger women to be his own man.
    Logically..
    TeenClops should have lusted for Emma & Cuckoos. Especially Stepford Cuckoos! They're teenage triplet clones of his hottest ex, how could he not be?
    End of rant

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    He wouldn't have had that power if the Avengers had stayed out of it - they always had before. And beating the Phoenix out was the only answer? That's just poor writing, we're supposed to believe that Scott will inevitably become Dark Phoenix even if nothing happens, so the Avengers had to attack him - which led to his becoming Dark Phoenix. Scott was literally ignoring the Avengers until they attacked him.



    In the same way that you have argued that Scott can be made to do literally anything Marvel wants, the Phoenix destroying worlds on the way to earth told me one thing: Marvel knew that if the Phoenix flew to earth peacefully, the readers would side with the X-Men. Even then the Avengers were basically idiots the entire time. Could Scott have handled things better? Yes. But the Avengers should take the majority of the blame for the events of AvX.
    Cyclops wasn't a hypocrite like Cap was with him stepping foot on Utopia demanding something that wasn't his to demand.
    Rant
    Jean really is the worst character in Marvel, isn't she?
    Scemma forever Triangle never.
    Scott needs an alpha female like Bettsy.
    What woman wouldn't be attracted to Scott? He's 100% alpha male who tells the Avengers to go f*#& themselves.
    I want cyclops back free from any ginger women to be his own man.
    Logically..
    TeenClops should have lusted for Emma & Cuckoos. Especially Stepford Cuckoos! They're teenage triplet clones of his hottest ex, how could he not be?
    End of rant

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldscottsummers View Post
    Who at Marvel thought Namor was worth resurrecting??
    He's the ultimate legacy character and a true eco-warrior. I'd rez him, even if he's not always everyone's favorite Atlantean.

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