View Poll Results: biased double standard exists in...Marvel???

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  1. #31
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldscottsummers View Post
    Cyclops wasn't a hypocrite like Cap was with him stepping foot on Utopia demanding something that wasn't his to demand.
    As far as hypocrisy goes, can't you argue Scott did the exact same thing in Children's Crusade with Wanda?

    Either way, I do think both sides should have been more reasonable. If they had just asked Hope what she wanted, she could have left with the Avengers and all that conflict could have been avoided. So yeah ... both sides in hindsight probably needed to chill there.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Cyclops was supposed to do have done something horrible before dying, but Marvel discarded that idea, and we have a bizarre situation now, with Cyclops being treated like a monster for months for no reason... It is just poor editorial planning.

    As for Xavier... yeah, Cyclops has the "I was possessed by a supernatural entity" free pass, but I think the rest of the X-Men were bitter because he assured them that he knew what he was doing when they tried to help Hope merge with the Phoenix. Like "this is totally safe, guys, the Phoenix totally isn't going to turn its host into an omnicidal maniac this time!".

    The Avengers were just pissed about being hunted and thrown into Hell.

    That said, both the Avengers and the X-Men have accepted back member who have done WAY worse stuff. The X-Men took Bishop back in the team, they took Emma Frost, Magneto and Dr. Nemesis in... The Avengers forgot everything Tony Stark did during the Crossing and CW I, they took Namor as a member, accepted Hulk back after World War Hulk and recruited Red Hulk after his coup...
    Last edited by Habis; 10-21-2017 at 12:31 PM.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    As far as hypocrisy goes, can't you argue Scott did the exact same thing in Children's Crusade with Wanda?

    Either way, I do think both sides should have been more reasonable. If they had just asked Hope what she wanted, she could have left with the Avengers and all that conflict could have been avoided. So yeah ... both sides in hindsight probably needed to chill there.
    I hate Hope. She is brat, they gave her 1,2,3,4,5 & more chances. But yet she cudnt make up her mind.
    Wanda still needs to be killed
    in my opinion, then again i might be bised .
    Rant
    Jean really is the worst character in Marvel, isn't she?
    Scemma forever Triangle never.
    Scott needs an alpha female like Bettsy.
    What woman wouldn't be attracted to Scott? He's 100% alpha male who tells the Avengers to go f*#& themselves.
    I want cyclops back free from any ginger women to be his own man.
    Logically..
    TeenClops should have lusted for Emma & Cuckoos. Especially Stepford Cuckoos! They're teenage triplet clones of his hottest ex, how could he not be?
    End of rant

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    HOnestly I don't think there are any bad guys here. Both sides arguably made their share of msitakes, but both sides in the end came together to save the day. They put aside whatever issues they had, did what they needed to do, and everyone in the end got what they wanted.

    And yes, despite the conflict I think Hope trusted the Avengers. Everyone here are heroes. They all know that. They may disagree but in the end they all want the same thing. And it's not that Hope trusted the Avengers more than the X-Men... it's that she trusted them more than the P5. She felt something was wrong there, just like Xavier did. Just like Ice Man did after speaking to Scott for like 30 seconds. Really all the X-Men ended up turning on the P5, and really in the end that's what needed to happen. They Phoeni needed to be driven out of them and into Hope. Once everyone got on the same page in that regard, both sides got to be heroes and save the day.

    It got ugly, but ultmately it was necessary. SOmetimes you need to break a few eggs to make an omlette.
    I will only debate about the events in-universe from here on.

    Cap showed up at Scott's door demanding he hand over his granddaughter, fully prepared to assault the X-Men if he refused. That already makes the Avengers the bad guys in my book, but the Avengers make it worse and worse as it goes along. The argument that the Phoenix always turns unprepared hosts into homicidal maniacs is destroyed when you consider that Rachel had it for 17 years. The Avengers had significantly less experience with the Phoenix, they took choice out of the X-Men's hands, they were aggressors for most of the event, they ignored those who told them that they were playing with fire.

    The Avengers started the entire fiasco because they didn't trust Hope's ability to control the PF, but they changed their tune when their backs were against the wall. The idea that the Avengers (Iron Fist and Scarlet Witch particularly) were the key to Hope controlling the PF is a slap to the face to X-fans; they were the aggressors, they were the ones responsible for the P5, and I'm supposed to be okay with them coming out smelling like roses at the end? No. They were wrong and paid nothing.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Cyclops was supposed to do have done something horrible before dying, but Marvel discarded that idea, and we have a bizarre situation now, with Cyclops being treated like a monster for months for no reason... It is just poor editorial planning.

    As for Xavier... yeah, Cyclops has the "I was possessed by a supernatural entity" free pass, but I think the rest of the X-Men were bitter because he assured them that he knew what he was doing when they tried to help Hope merge with the Phoenix. Like "this is totally safe, guys, the Phoenix totally isn't going to turn its host into an omnicidal maniac this time!".

    The Avengers were just pissed about being hunted and thrown into Hell.

    That said, both the Avengers and the X-Men have accepted back member who have done WAY worse stuff. The X-Men took Bishop back in the team, they took Emma Frost, Magneto and Dr. Nemesis in... The Avengers forgot everything Tony Stark did during the Crossing and CW I, they took Namor as a member, accepted Hulk back after World War Hulk and recruited Red Hulk after his coup...

    Do you boys/girls remember the day when Cyclops was actually respected and liked by the writers/Marvel.
    Cyke refused bow down to Avengers.
    I'm getting so angry at their hypocrisy.
    Especially Cap.
    (I know there are a lot of Captain America fans, so I apologize for what I'm about to say.)
    Self-righteous hypocrite took X-23 and captured her. Then him and Daredevil talked, about what to do with her and he said they should hold her accountable, for her actions even thoughshe was brainwashed to do it. Did he do that Bucky? Nope.

    After 30 years of being the yes man for charles and doing the ethically right thing, he's had enough. If mankind won't protect the mutants, than he will
    Rant
    Jean really is the worst character in Marvel, isn't she?
    Scemma forever Triangle never.
    Scott needs an alpha female like Bettsy.
    What woman wouldn't be attracted to Scott? He's 100% alpha male who tells the Avengers to go f*#& themselves.
    I want cyclops back free from any ginger women to be his own man.
    Logically..
    TeenClops should have lusted for Emma & Cuckoos. Especially Stepford Cuckoos! They're teenage triplet clones of his hottest ex, how could he not be?
    End of rant

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    As far as hypocrisy goes, can't you argue Scott did the exact same thing in Children's Crusade with Wanda?

    Either way, I do think both sides should have been more reasonable. If they had just asked Hope what she wanted, she could have left with the Avengers and all that conflict could have been avoided. So yeah ... both sides in hindsight probably needed to chill there.
    Children's Crusade took place before AvX, no? And she was responsible for the deaths of countless and the near extinction of a species. Even if CC had taken place after AvX, that would be one death for Scott, unknowable for Wanda. Scott wanted Wanda to answer for her crime but Steve said "Nah, she's an Avenger." but what Steve did was show up at the door step of a supposed friend demanding he hand over his family and proceeded to assault him when he refused.

    Seriously? Ask Hope? The Avengers were making her choices for her, the X-Men never lied to her that she had a choice in the first place. She knew the Phoenix couldn't be stopped, but she chose to go to the people who tried and failed?

  7. #37
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I will only debate about the events in-universe from here on.

    Cap showed up at Scott's door demanding he hand over his granddaughter, fully prepared to assault the X-Men if he refused. That already makes the Avengers the bad guys in my book, but the Avengers make it worse and worse as it goes along. The argument that the Phoenix always turns unprepared hosts into homicidal maniacs is destroyed when you consider that Rachel had it for 17 years. The Avengers had significantly less experience with the Phoenix, they took choice out of the X-Men's hands, they were aggressors for most of the event, they ignored those who told them that they were playing with fire.

    The Avengers started the entire fiasco because they didn't trust Hope's ability to control the PF, but they changed their tune when their backs were against the wall. The idea that the Avengers (Iron Fist and Scarlet Witch particularly) were the key to Hope controlling the PF is a slap to the face to X-fans; they were the aggressors, they were the ones responsible for the P5, and I'm supposed to be okay with them coming out smelling like roses at the end? No. They were wrong and paid nothing.
    Ultimately 3 things needed to be done. Firstly the Phoenix needed to be prevented from claiming Hope when it arrived for her because she wasn't properly trained for it yet. Secondly, Hope needed to be trained to properly control the Phoenix. ANd thirdly, the Phoenix needed to be driven out from the P5 so Hope could claim it. And the Avengers managed to do all those things.

    I don't disagree that the Avengers didn't make their fair share of mistakes. But they also did exactly what was needed to be done, while the X-Men were inadvertently just getting in the way until they switched sides and joined them . I get that some X fans may feel that's a slap in the face or whatever, but if we're debating the events in-universe then in-universe then what the Avengers did, as ugly as it got was necessary.

    As far as the Avengers paying nothing... given the Avengers ended up trying to take custody of a girl that wanted to work with them anyways, I don't think they did anything that anyone in universe is going to lose sleep over. Hope was fine being "kidnapped" as they gave her the help she couldn't get from the X-Men. All things cosidered, what happened was what needed to happen and everyone got the result they wanted.

  8. #38
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Children's Crusade took place before AvX, no? And she was responsible for the deaths of countless and the near extinction of a species. Even if CC had taken place after AvX, that would be one death for Scott, unknowable for Wanda. Scott wanted Wanda to answer for her crime but Steve said "Nah, she's an Avenger." but what Steve did was show up at the door step of a supposed friend demanding he hand over his family and proceeded to assault him when he refused.

    Seriously? Ask Hope? The Avengers were making her choices for her, the X-Men never lied to her that she had a choice in the first place. She knew the Phoenix couldn't be stopped, but she chose to go to the people who tried and failed?
    Steves answer was that he was going to take Wanda into custody... which he actually had the authority to do since Steve at this point was top cop and Wanda was a US citizen on US soil. Ultimately Steve had the authority here, not Scott.

    But it's all moot anyways since both sides ended up agreeing to just let Wanda do. I'm just saying Scott did something pretty similar. Also, note that on both occasins Cyclops shot first.

    And yes seriously... ask Hope. Since she wanted to go with the Avengers anyways, that really would have simplified the situation. Steve and Scott should have given her that option, and they can both be faulted for not doing so.

    And yes, she did choose to go with the Avengers because they were actually trying to deal with the problem while the X-Men were frankly just ignoring it. X-Men were truthfully a dead end. She needed real help and the Avengers were able to give it to her, And that's how the situation ended up being resolved. After preventing Phoenix from getting Hope, they train her to control the Phoenix and drive the Phoenix out of the P5. They ended up being exactly what she needed to get the Phoenix and restore the mutants.

    That's ultimately why ther's not too much I can really see to complain about. They got the job done, and the mutantsl clearly benefited the MOST from the actual outcome. It's win win all around.

  9. #39
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    AvsX is a wreck of a story. It basically shows everyone in a bad light just so AvsX could happen.A obvious solution was to take Hope off planet somewhere once it got close where if the Phoenix consumed a planet no one would die. then once hope has mastered it she could have been the yass white Phoenix queen or whatever.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Steves answer was that he was going to take Wanda into custody... which he actually had the authority to do since Steve at this point was top cop and Wanda was a US citizen on US soil. Ultimately Steve had the authority here, not Scott.

    But it's all moot anyways since both sides ended up agreeing to just let Wanda do. I'm just saying Scott did something pretty similar. Also, note that on both occasins Cyclops shot first.

    And yes seriously... ask Hope. Since she wanted to go with the Avengers anyways, that really would have simplified the situation. Steve and Scott should have given her that option, and they can both be faulted for not doing so.

    And yes, she did choose to go with the Avengers because they were actually trying to deal with the problem while the X-Men were frankly just ignoring it. X-Men were truthfully a dead end. She needed real help and the Avengers were able to give it to her, And that's how the situation ended up being resolved. After preventing Phoenix from getting Hope, they train her to control the Phoenix and drive the Phoenix out of the P5. They ended up being exactly what she needed to get the Phoenix and restore the mutants.

    That's ultimately why ther's not too much I can really see to complain about. They got the job done, and the mutantsl clearly benefited the MOST from the actual outcome. It's win win all around.
    Phoenix Hosts needing to practice Kung Fu with Iron Fist is a very stupid retcon. The character that was hurt most in AvX wasn´t Cyclops or any other X-Men, it's the Phoenix force.
    Before that event, it wasn´t an evil force that destroyed planets for fun while traveling through space like an elephant stepping on ants, if Jean grey destroyed a star in the Dark Phoenix Saga, it was because she was corrupted, brain raped, by Mastermind, not because the Phoenix is inherently evil.
    The second time Jean had the Phoenix (Morrison's run), she didnt have problems controlling it (why didn't the Avengers attack her then?), and Rachel had the Phoenix for many years without any problem.
    Bendis himself said he couldn't think of a good reason for the Avengers to be in the story so he created the "Hope needs to train with Iron Fist ?!?!?!?" thing.

    it was a bad story. It should have been an x-men crossover, not a company wide crossover. Marvel saw the opportuny for great sales, and to use the x-men to push the avengers, and took that chance, even if that story suffered.
    that story was the end of a story arc that had begun more than half a decade ago with House of M, and it was hijacked by the Avengers. That is why I am not against the X-Men being sent to their own planet or universe, at least it would prevent that.

  11. #41
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Cyclops had been acting less and less rational and more and more aggressive in the events leading up to AvsX. By the time the story started, he'd already formed a wetworks team using mentally unstable teenagers, declare himself the final authority on all things mutant, formed his own country in US waters and threatened the governments of the world.

    By the time A vs X rolled around, he was basically going, "I know Phoenix has never re-powered mutants on a planetary scale before or anything even remotely like this, but I'm pretty sure that's what it's going to do this time. I just have a hunch. It's totally going to do that and not destroy the planet, which is what is IS doing right now and has a history of."

    It's no wonder at that point that the Avengers really didn't want to listen to him.

    Maybe it was the stress, maybe hanging around Magneto and White Queen had started rubbing off on him, or maybe he was finally going through the awkward teenage rebellion phase he skipped growing up, but the guy wasn't exactly being the most rational of superheroes.

    Then he and his guys took over the world and he killed Xavier, but that's totally not his fault. it's the fault of Phoenix... the thing that the Avengers didn't even want on the planet and Cyclops was welcoming with open arms.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    Honestly I am not sure I agree. I think Cyclops development across the last couple of years has actually felt earned. He had to make tough choices, compromise his morals etc. It was actual character development.
    Yeah, as someone who's always loved Scott (even in the '90s cartoon!), I really enjoyed his development over the last 17 years. It started with his return after being possessed by Apocalypse, where he showed some signs of PTSD. That was where he really started to change. And at every step along the way, from then until his death, his decisions made sense. Maybe they weren't always the best decisions, but they were decisions it made sense for him to make.

    When adult Scott does inevitably come back, I want him to stand by his decisions. With mutants no longer on the edge of extinction, he can mellow out, but he should stand by the decisions he made to keep the mutant race alive when things were darkest for them.

    Though I'd also probably not have him return to the X-Men right away. Either a series where he's just trying to live a normal life in Alaska (and gets dragged into doing superhero stuff because he's not allowed to have nice things), or even have him join the Avengers.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Ultimately 3 things needed to be done. Firstly the Phoenix needed to be prevented from claiming Hope when it arrived for her because she wasn't properly trained for it yet. Secondly, Hope needed to be trained to properly control the Phoenix. ANd thirdly, the Phoenix needed to be driven out from the P5 so Hope could claim it. And the Avengers managed to do all those things.

    I don't disagree that the Avengers didn't make their fair share of mistakes. But they also did exactly what was needed to be done, while the X-Men were inadvertently just getting in the way until they switched sides and joined them . I get that some X fans may feel that's a slap in the face or whatever, but if we're debating the events in-universe then in-universe then what the Avengers did, as ugly as it got was necessary.

    As far as the Avengers paying nothing... given the Avengers ended up trying to take custody of a girl that wanted to work with them anyways, I don't think they did anything that anyone in universe is going to lose sleep over. Hope was fine being "kidnapped" as they gave her the help she couldn't get from the X-Men. All things cosidered, what happened was what needed to happen and everyone got the result they wanted.
    Hope not being ready for the Phoenix was only a development because of this event. She and the X-Men were used to for the Avengers. You are giving credit to the Avengers for solving problems that wouldn't exist without them, in-universe and IRL. Nothing the Avengers did was necessary, they had no way of knowing if anything they tried would work, so why should they get credit when you claim the X-Men were just as clueless? Hope was only okay with going with the Avengers when she didn't have the Phoenix, after they attacked her people and tried to kidnap/kill her, and I'm supposed to buy she's capable of making intelligent decisions while reading AvX? Did anyone act absolutely beyond reproach? No, but the Avengers had most of the blame for the events, they don't deserve a slap on the wrist. What about all of the assaults on the X-Men (who had yet to do anything wrong), or trying to blow up a cosmic force so close to the earth?

    If we talk about the writing: the event was literally the culmination of years of stories for the X-Men and Marvel handed their biggest triumph over to the Avengers, characterization and continuity be damned. Forgive me for not being happy about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Steves answer was that he was going to take Wanda into custody... which he actually had the authority to do since Steve at this point was top cop and Wanda was a US citizen on US soil. Ultimately Steve had the authority here, not Scott.

    But it's all moot anyways since both sides ended up agreeing to just let Wanda do. I'm just saying Scott did something pretty similar. Also, note that on both occasins Cyclops shot first.

    And yes seriously... ask Hope. Since she wanted to go with the Avengers anyways, that really would have simplified the situation. Steve and Scott should have given her that option, and they can both be faulted for not doing so.

    And yes, she did choose to go with the Avengers because they were actually trying to deal with the problem while the X-Men were frankly just ignoring it. X-Men were truthfully a dead end. She needed real help and the Avengers were able to give it to her, And that's how the situation ended up being resolved. After preventing Phoenix from getting Hope, they train her to control the Phoenix and drive the Phoenix out of the P5. They ended up being exactly what she needed to get the Phoenix and restore the mutants.

    That's ultimately why ther's not too much I can really see to complain about. They got the job done, and the mutantsl clearly benefited the MOST from the actual outcome. It's win win all around.
    He used his authority to help Wanda avoid proper consequences, like a cop making an arrest go away for a family member. How is what Scott did similar? He shot first by asking for justice to be done? Or do you mean when he literally shot first because he knew that Cap had brought the Avengers to take what he wanted? How could Scott have known? He's a leader and understands how they think.

    Hope was written very poorly in the event, her choosing to go with the Avengers after everything they did is just more proof of that. The Avengers tried to kill/kidnap her; Scott told her she could leave whenever she wanted. I know that someone will bring up that he ultimately didn't want to let her leave - because she was trying to leave with the Avengers who were on their second kidnapping attempt to use her against the X-Men. The Avengers weren't interested in actually giving her choices.

    The big problems of the event were direct results of the Avengers' actions, do you give credit to people who clean up their own mess? No, it's expected.

    Scott was thrown in a prison they knew he was likely to be killed in, detained illegally with no trial set. Win win all around.

  14. #44
    Mighty Member My Two Cents's Avatar
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    D C once rebooted Superman and than killed him to get sales
    and now Marvel has been doing everything short of rebooting there Universe to
    get sales ............... Scott Summer............. Namor............. Steve Rogers........ and many more are
    nothing more than tools in Marvels box and they have and will continue to misuse them in any way
    they want, if they so choose to

  15. #45

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    For all the complaining about AvX, I just want to remind everyone of that event's greatest sin: Wolverine wearing a polar bear pelt in Antarctica. 5 years later, I'm still angry about that. Never mind Scott or Hope or Wanda or whatever. A polar bear in Antarctica.

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