View Poll Results: biased double standard exists in...Marvel???

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  • Yes

    31 81.58%
  • No

    6 15.79%
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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Cyclops had been acting less and less rational and more and more aggressive in the events leading up to AvsX. By the time the story started, he'd already formed a wetworks team using mentally unstable teenagers, declare himself the final authority on all things mutant, formed his own country in US waters and threatened the governments of the world.

    By the time A vs X rolled around, he was basically going, "I know Phoenix has never re-powered mutants on a planetary scale before or anything even remotely like this, but I'm pretty sure that's what it's going to do this time. I just have a hunch. It's totally going to do that and not destroy the planet, which is what is IS doing right now and has a history of."

    It's no wonder at that point that the Avengers really didn't want to listen to him.

    Maybe it was the stress, maybe hanging around Magneto and White Queen had started rubbing off on him, or maybe he was finally going through the awkward teenage rebellion phase he skipped growing up, but the guy wasn't exactly being the most rational of superheroes.

    Then he and his guys took over the world and he killed Xavier, but that's totally not his fault. it's the fault of Phoenix... the thing that the Avengers didn't even want on the planet and Cyclops was welcoming with open arms.
    Scott had become aggressive, we can agree; the Avengers also had wetworks teams before, only they weren't trying to stave off extinction; he did not declare himself the authority on all things mutant, or did you forget that Logan left with a bunch of mutants and Scott didn't kill anyone for disagreeing with him?; he formed his country under a US that had Osborn as the top cop and he only promised retaliation to the nations of the world, last I checked plenty of nations IRL do the same.

    The Avengers listened to Logan, who can't be said to be morally superior to Scott, and they're full of killers and former-killers. But sure, lets hold Scott to a completely different standard.

    If all the heroes of the MU were behaving rationally all the time we wouldn't have so many events. The Avengers weren't exactly the most rational or moral heroes at the time either.

    They wouldn't have had that power if not for the Avengers; no one would have been hurt if they stopped attacking the P5; and the Phoenix was not going to be stopped, so the Avengers are responsible for the P5; and lastly, if Marvel wanted readers to question the viability of the Phoenix, it should've been done in the lead-up to the event not during.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    For all the complaining about AvX, I just want to remind everyone of that event's greatest sin: Wolverine wearing a polar bear pelt in Antarctica. 5 years later, I'm still angry about that. Never mind Scott or Hope or Wanda or whatever. A polar bear in Antarctica.
    I didn't get that either, I mean he has a healing factor doesn't he? The artist thought it would be a cool shot.

  3. #48
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Hope not being ready for the Phoenix was only a development because of this event. She and the X-Men were used to for the Avengers. You are giving credit to the Avengers for solving problems that wouldn't exist without them, in-universe and IRL. Nothing the Avengers did was necessary, they had no way of knowing if anything they tried would work, so why should they get credit when you claim the X-Men were just as clueless? Hope was only okay with going with the Avengers when she didn't have the Phoenix, after they attacked her people and tried to kidnap/kill her, and I'm supposed to buy she's capable of making intelligent decisions while reading AvX? Did anyone act absolutely beyond reproach? No, but the Avengers had most of the blame for the events, they don't deserve a slap on the wrist. What about all of the assaults on the X-Men (who had yet to do anything wrong), or trying to blow up a cosmic force so close to the earth?

    If we talk about the writing: the event was literally the culmination of years of stories for the X-Men and Marvel handed their biggest triumph over to the Avengers, characterization and continuity be damned. Forgive me for not being happy about that.



    He used his authority to help Wanda avoid proper consequences, like a cop making an arrest go away for a family member. How is what Scott did similar? He shot first by asking for justice to be done? Or do you mean when he literally shot first because he knew that Cap had brought the Avengers to take what he wanted? How could Scott have known? He's a leader and understands how they think.

    Hope was written very poorly in the event, her choosing to go with the Avengers after everything they did is just more proof of that. The Avengers tried to kill/kidnap her; Scott told her she could leave whenever she wanted. I know that someone will bring up that he ultimately didn't want to let her leave - because she was trying to leave with the Avengers who were on their second kidnapping attempt to use her against the X-Men. The Avengers weren't interested in actually giving her choices.

    The big problems of the event were direct results of the Avengers' actions, do you give credit to people who clean up their own mess? No, it's expected.

    Scott was thrown in a prison they knew he was likely to be killed in, detained illegally with no trial set. Win win all around.
    I give the Avengers credit because again, the ended up doing what needed to be done. Clearly they were necessary in preventing Phoenix from taking Hope on the moon when she wasn't ready to control it. They were also necessary in training Hope to control the Phoenix, and in driving the Phoenix out of the P5. All this needed to be done to get the end result everyone wanted, and the Avengers did it.

    I'll agree that at least at the start they didn't know what they were doing ... no one did. But because the Avengers were trying to reolve the situation while the X-Men quite honestly weren't, they proved to be the right people to help Hope. And together they got the job done. Breevort (the editor of the event) and Gillen (who wrote Scott in Uncanny X-Men) have both flat out stated that if Scott had gotten his way the earth would have been destroyed. THe Avengers NEEDED to be involved to help Hope. And they did.

    Sorry if it bothers some X-Men fans that the Avengers played an unusually large role in resolving an X-Men problem, but that's the story we got. If you want to ignore the fact that Hope couldn't control the Phoenix without the training the Avengers ended up getting her, that's your call... but that's the story we got.

  4. #49
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Scott had become aggressive, we can agree; the Avengers also had wetworks teams before, only they weren't trying to stave off extinction; he did not declare himself the authority on all things mutant, or did you forget that Logan left with a bunch of mutants and Scott didn't kill anyone for disagreeing with him?; he formed his country under a US that had Osborn as the top cop and he only promised retaliation to the nations of the world, last I checked plenty of nations IRL do the same.

    The Avengers listened to Logan, who can't be said to be morally superior to Scott, and they're full of killers and former-killers. But sure, lets hold Scott to a completely different standard.

    If all the heroes of the MU were behaving rationally all the time we wouldn't have so many events. The Avengers weren't exactly the most rational or moral heroes at the time either.

    They wouldn't have had that power if not for the Avengers; no one would have been hurt if they stopped attacking the P5; and the Phoenix was not going to be stopped, so the Avengers are responsible for the P5; and lastly, if Marvel wanted readers to question the viability of the Phoenix, it should've been done in the lead-up to the event not during.
    Sure the Avengers are responsible for the P5... but overall that wasn't a bad thing. The Phoenix came for Hope before she was ready to control it ... so the Phoenix going into the P5 bought them time to properly train Hope to control it. Once she could, all the Avengers needed to do was beat the Phoenix out of the P5 so it would go into Hope, and mutants could be restored.

    Again, what happened was what needed to happen. The P5 needed to be created to save Hope from the Phoenix. The P5 needed to be attacked because the Phoenix needed to be driven out of them and into Hope. Yea, the P5 were unfortuantely put in a sucky position there but in the end they got what they wanted. So it all worked out.

  5. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    Yeah, as someone who's always loved Scott (even in the '90s cartoon!), I really enjoyed his development over the last 17 years. It started with his return after being possessed by Apocalypse, where he showed some signs of PTSD. That was where he really started to change. And at every step along the way, from then until his death, his decisions made sense. Maybe they weren't always the best decisions, but they were decisions it made sense for him to make.

    When adult Scott does inevitably come back, I want him to stand by his decisions. With mutants no longer on the edge of extinction, he can mellow out, but he should stand by the decisions he made to keep the mutant race alive when things were darkest for them.

    Though I'd also probably not have him return to the X-Men right away. Either a series where he's just trying to live a normal life in Alaska (and gets dragged into doing superhero stuff because he's not allowed to have nice things), or even have him join the Avengers.
    I just want Rightclops back. His character development was the most interesting to me.

    Reason some people like Rightlops, including myself, is because he is the ideal X-man, he believes in the dream more strongly than Xavier, but is also less idealistic and pragmatic. Personal vendettas or trying to one up anyone isn't his motivation, its cold-hard heroism. To give to others what he didn't have, even if it means making the unpopular choice, and permanently casting yourself in negative light, so long as the dream stays alive. The dream that mutant can live happily with humans.

    He's a great example of a character that is flawed and a little self destruction, yet inspirational at the same time. And ironically, Marvel's attempts to demonize him in later years only made him look better to me in the end.
    Rant
    Jean really is the worst character in Marvel, isn't she?
    Scemma forever Triangle never.
    Scott needs an alpha female like Bettsy.
    What woman wouldn't be attracted to Scott? He's 100% alpha male who tells the Avengers to go f*#& themselves.
    I want cyclops back free from any ginger women to be his own man.
    Logically..
    TeenClops should have lusted for Emma & Cuckoos. Especially Stepford Cuckoos! They're teenage triplet clones of his hottest ex, how could he not be?
    End of rant

  6. #51

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    He does not have to be a leader
    Now that Rightclops isn't the leader of the X-Men race, he would be perfect for a small edgy mixed team of heros, anti/heros and villains
    or his own solo
    Rant
    Jean really is the worst character in Marvel, isn't she?
    Scemma forever Triangle never.
    Scott needs an alpha female like Bettsy.
    What woman wouldn't be attracted to Scott? He's 100% alpha male who tells the Avengers to go f*#& themselves.
    I want cyclops back free from any ginger women to be his own man.
    Logically..
    TeenClops should have lusted for Emma & Cuckoos. Especially Stepford Cuckoos! They're teenage triplet clones of his hottest ex, how could he not be?
    End of rant

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Sure the Avengers are responsible for the P5... but overall that wasn't a bad thing. The Phoenix came for Hope before she was ready to control it ... so the Phoenix going into the P5 bought them time to properly train Hope to control it. Once she could, all the Avengers needed to do was beat the Phoenix out of the P5 so it would go into Hope, and mutants could be restored.

    Again, what happened was what needed to happen. The P5 needed to be created to save Hope from the Phoenix. The P5 needed to be attacked because the Phoenix needed to be driven out of them and into Hope. Yea, the P5 were unfortuantely put in a sucky position there but in the end they got what they wanted. So it all worked out.
    I don't think we will ever see eye to eye here. I don't understand how anyone can be happy that a story needed explanation from editors and writers, or how anyone can read AvX and not see how much worse the Avengers are handling things. When I read your two statements I see: "Those things that were dumb and out of character, that contradict years of continuity, that editors had to spell out were necessary because the story didn't do a good enough job of explaining anything, those things make the Avengers and X-Men equally responsible for the trouble of AvX. In fact, the Avengers are the heroes of the story, without them the world was guaranteed screwed." Never mind that that contradicts the apocolypse that would come if the Avengers took Hope, or did you forget Cable had tried killing the Avengers for that very reason?

    Thanks for the debate, but I think we both understand we have reached an impasse.

  8. #53
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I don't think we will ever see eye to eye here. I don't understand how anyone can be happy that a story needed explanation from editors and writers, or how anyone can read AvX and not see how much worse the Avengers are handling things. When I read your two statements I see: "Those things that were dumb and out of character, that contradict years of continuity, that editors had to spell out were necessary because the story didn't do a good enough job of explaining anything, those things make the Avengers and X-Men equally responsible for the trouble of AvX. In fact, the Avengers are the heroes of the story, without them the world was guaranteed screwed." Never mind that that contradicts the apocolypse that would come if the Avengers took Hope, or did you forget Cable had tried killing the Avengers for that very reason?

    Thanks for the debate, but I think we both understand we have reached an impasse.
    Cable said the apocalypse would come if the Avengers went with Hope. Bishop said the apocalypse would happen because of Hope. Moral of the story is guys from the future aren't always right. That's why we have a multiverse of alternate future realities.

    But yes, without them the world is screwed. That's the point of super hero stories. Heroes saving the day. It shouldn't take writers and editors to explain that super heroes are needed, but for whatever reason some readers needed that to be explained. If the heroes didn't need to do anything this wouldn't be a story worth telling.

  9. #54

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    By the way, in terms of the double-standards: Yes, and? I mean, they're a real thing. Characters in-universe are displaying a double-standard? Sure. Because they're people. I honestly have no problem with it. Especially since, once Adult Scott comes back, there's a high likelihood he'll be coming back as a hero, forgiven for his sins. So I'm really not all that bothered by it.

    My concern, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, is that I want Scott to still own his decisions when he comes back. To stand by the things he did, and make no apologies for them. I don't want a redemption arc for him. I want him to return as the person he was when he died, and to continue his eternal path of development from that point.

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    My concern, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, is that I want Scott to still own his decisions when he comes back. To stand by the things he did, and make no apologies for them. I don't want a redemption arc for him. I want him to return as the person he was when he died, and to continue his eternal path of development from that point.
    You mean you want Scott continue to be Revolutionary Rightclops?

    I do not mind the anti-hero Scott. I just want him to stop asking forgiveness from X men. they are not worth it.

    I want him to be an outcast with his own independent vision & realistic philosophy as opposed to Magneto & "Xavier's Dream".
    He should be the guy who does not care what X men, humans, heros think about him.
    He just does the right thing.
    I like the development of his character better from Morrison, the one of Morrison, Whedon, and the one was who leader of Utopia, and the leader of mutants having replaced Xavier.
    Rant
    Jean really is the worst character in Marvel, isn't she?
    Scemma forever Triangle never.
    Scott needs an alpha female like Bettsy.
    What woman wouldn't be attracted to Scott? He's 100% alpha male who tells the Avengers to go f*#& themselves.
    I want cyclops back free from any ginger women to be his own man.
    Logically..
    TeenClops should have lusted for Emma & Cuckoos. Especially Stepford Cuckoos! They're teenage triplet clones of his hottest ex, how could he not be?
    End of rant

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatty View Post
    By the way, in terms of the double-standards: Yes, and? I mean, they're a real thing. Characters in-universe are displaying a double-standard? Sure. Because they're people. I honestly have no problem with it. Especially since, once Adult Scott comes back, there's a high likelihood he'll be coming back as a hero, forgiven for his sins. So I'm really not all that bothered by it.

    My concern, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, is that I want Scott to still own his decisions when he comes back. To stand by the things he did, and make no apologies for them. I don't want a redemption arc for him. I want him to return as the person he was when he died, and to continue his eternal path of development from that point.
    I agree, he shouldn't come back and everything be swept under the rug.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    Honestly I am not sure I agree. I think Cyclops development across the last couple of years has actually felt earned. He had to make tough choices, compromise his morals etc. It was actual character development.

    Particularly in terms of Wanda she was totally ruined as a character beyond repair. There is coming back from back genocide.

    Scott killing Xavier could be argued as temporary insanity even without the Phoenix. He's literally the first person Scott ever trusted after an horrific childhood and he violated his mind, sent his brother to his death and then hid the evidence. I mean Scott killing him in a rage. He'd probably get manslaughter.
    Unfortunately, Prof X didn't stay dead.

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldscottsummers View Post
    You mean you want Scott continue to be Revolutionary Rightclops?

    I do not mind the anti-hero Scott. I just want him to stop asking forgiveness from X men. they are not worth it.

    I want him to be an outcast with his own independent vision & realistic philosophy as opposed to Magneto & "Xavier's Dream".
    He should be the guy who does not care what X men, humans, heros think about him.
    He just does the right thing.
    I like the development of his character better from Morrison, the one of Morrison, Whedon, and the one was who leader of Utopia, and the leader of mutants having replaced Xavier.
    I'd be fine if Scott dropped the Mutant Revolutionary thing, and went back to just being a hero. But it should be because he feels the situation for mutants has eased up enough that he doesn't need to lead a revolution.

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