Five Years Later, AvX: What really went wrong? Who was the reall villain?

[Havok83]

Okay, I guess I didn't expect some people to take me literally that the Avengers or other characters in the MCU have NEVER helped the X-Men. Yes, they have helped sometimes, but most of them have been because it affected them in some way, so they had to help. And for the few times they did help the X-Men, there are about a hundred times they didn't.

it goes both ways though as there are hundreds of times when the X-men didnt involve themselves in non-X-men conflicts

And they only found out about Onslaught because Nate Grey sought them out.

They couldn't exactly do much during Second Coming either way you slice it though. They got there and stood outside the red bubble with everyone else while the X-Men fought inside of it.

they at least tried. They had their heavy hitters and science experts try to break it so that everyone wasnt killed inside, which is quite different than simply ignoring it

[Striderblack01]

OH. This again.

Yes, the X-men were being reckless and cavalier with the whole of humanity.
Yes, the Avengers were being fascist a-holes.
It's a terrible story, full of plot-holes, and out-of-character moments, that made everybody involved look bad.

Rather than taking sides, as per usual, can we stop to consider one other possibility?
That maybe, nothing that anyone did in that story actually mattered?

The Phoenix is a nigh-unstoppable cosmic force, and its intentions, goals, and strategem are left wholly unexplained.
It seems to me that arguing about "who was right, what they should've done, or who is the bigger douche" in that story is a bit like ants arguing about the best way to stop a flood, while the water was rushing towards them.
It doesn't really make any sense for any human to be able to influence the Phoenix in any kind of substantial way.

Maybe it all worked out exactly the way that it was supposed to?
Maybe everyone made it worse?
Maybe the Phoenix would've taken Hope, restarted the X-gene, and bounced?

Seems far-fetched, but we don't know is my point.

[cc008]

they at least tried. They had their heavy hitters and science experts try to break it so that everyone wasnt killed inside, which is quite different than simply ignoring it

I'm not saying they did.. they were just rendered ineffective the minute they got there. If Nemesis and Reed couldn't figure out the bubble, nobody was.

[sureshot]

I'm a simple man. When I see low hanging fruit, I take it. So I will say Marvel Editorial.

Agreed and seconded.

[Ulfhammer]

OH. This again.

Yes, the X-men were being reckless and cavalier with the whole of humanity.
Yes, the Avengers were being fascist a-holes.
It's a terrible story, full of plot-holes, and out-of-character moments, that made everybody involved look bad.

Rather than taking sides, as per usual, can we stop to consider one other possibility?
That maybe, nothing that anyone did in that story actually mattered?

The Phoenix is a nigh-unstoppable cosmic force, and its intentions, goals, and strategem are left wholly unexplained.
It seems to me that arguing about "who was right, what they should've done, or who is the bigger douche" in that story is a bit like ants arguing about the best way to stop a flood, while the water was rushing towards them.
It doesn't really make any sense for any human to be able to influence the Phoenix in any kind of substantial way.

Maybe it all worked out exactly the way that it was supposed to?
Maybe everyone made it worse?
Maybe the Phoenix would've taken Hope, restarted the X-gene, and bounced?

Seems far-fetched, but we don't know is my point.

The only lasting outcome was the continued framing of Cyclops as a villain. That part I think we can all agree on. It's clear, to me at least, that was the point of the core arc of the event.

Everything else of consequence has since been corrected or is about to be, if it wasn't corrected within the event itself. I guess Emma and Scott's split was never corrected but it seems most fans are ok with that.

[Star_Jammer]

That, plus they had to be involved because it affected the whole world (like Onslaught).

And the Phoenix was doing what, exactly, to "whole worlds" before it came to Earth?

[CuteClops]

My apologies, I'm not 100% sure what your point is with this post.

Cable knew the Avengers would come for Hope. Cable didn't give specific instructions to Cyclops on what his role would be. The Avengers still wound up with Hope in their custody and the world didn't end in flames.

I can tell you that I predict you will eat food tomorrow; does that make me some sort of expert on telling the future?

Plus, those scans look a HELL of a lot like "we don't know how to handle the Phoenix" to me.

I don't think you've understood AvX. Reread the books. You'll see that Cable AND Cyclops were right about the Avengers and Hope.
And the Captain Fascist was wrong.

[Star_Jammer]

I don't think you've understood AvX. Reread the books. You'll see that Cable AND Cyclops were right about the Avengers and Hope.
And the Captain Fascist was wrong.

I understood it just fine, thanks.

It's canon that the Avengers had Hope in their custody, and helped her fulfill her destiny. By her own admission, Hope was not ready to handle the Phoenix when she was on the moon. Obviously Cable was lacking some information in his testimony*.

If you want to argue that all of that is silly, that's fine and fair (I largely agree).

*There's also the plot issues about the Five Lights that never really reached conclusion, and UNIT's involvement in keeping details scant for the purpose of finding out what would happen without the Five Lights present.

[CuteClops]

Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch used to just be plain terrorist but the Avengers made them respectable members of the hero community.

It was better when they were dealing with Magneto.
Now, Wanda is a batshit-crazy genocidal. Well, but she is an Avenger. Then nothing will happen to her. Nothing.







The Avengers are murderers, genocidal, fascists, and they've put the entire planet at risk several times. Indeed, they have already destroyed whole planets.

The Avengers are worse than Red Skull, Thanos and Dr. Doom.

But the Avengers can do anything. They are Avengers, after all.




And so, I repeat:

Maybe the Avengers should arrest Jean Grey when she returns. After all, she's the Phoenix, right? She has already destroyed an entire planet.

And Spider-Man and Iron Fist are the Phoenix experts. So, yeah, okay.

Well, the Avengers should protect the planet. So, first, they will attack the school, then, arrest them all. Basically, all the X-Men.

Let's see:

Captain America: "We'll have to take Jean Grey into custody anyway."

Kitty Pryde and the X-Men: "Okay, sure. We don't want to be called 'terrorist' or EvilPryde. Okay, Cap, you can take her."


So, Jean Grey must be arrested or maybe killed. Maybe Logan will kill her, or Hank, or Wanda, or Clint Barton, or Carol Danvers, or Steve Rogers. They are Avengers, after all. So, nothing will happen to them. Nothing.

[The Whovian]

It was better when they were dealing with Magneto.
Now, Wanda is a batshit-crazy genocidal. Well, but she is an Avenger. Then nothing will happen to her. Nothing.







The Avengers are murderers, genocidal, fascists, and they've put the entire planet at risk several times. Indeed, they have already destroyed whole planets.

The Avengers are worse than Red Skull, Thanos and Dr. Doom.

But the Avengers can do anything. They are Avengers, after all.




And so, I repeat:

Maybe the Avengers should arrest Jean Grey when she returns. After all, she's the Phoenix, right? She has already destroyed an entire planet.

And Spider-Man and Iron Fist are the Phoenix experts. So, yeah, okay.

Well, the Avengers should protect the planet. So, first, they will attack the school, then, arrest them all. Basically, all the X-Men.

Let's see:

Captain America: "We'll have to take Jean Grey into custody anyway."

Kitty Pryde and the X-Men: "Okay, sure. We don't want to be called 'terrorist' or EvilPryde. Okay, Cap, you can take her."


So, Jean Grey must be arrested or maybe killed. Maybe Logan will kill her, or Hank, or Wanda, or Clint Barton, or Carol Danvers, or Steve Rogers. They are Avengers, after all. So, nothing will happen to them. Nothing.

See, that page right there shows how hypocritical Cap is. When Cyke told Cap they would take care of Hope and deal with their own, he was like "No, we're here to stop this. Get out of our way". But when the shoe is on the other foot and SW does something very bad, now Cap is singing a different tune.

[Havok83]

So, Jean Grey must be arrested or maybe killed. Maybe Logan will kill her, or Hank, or Wanda, or Clint Barton, or Carol Danvers, or Steve Rogers. They are Avengers, after all. So, nothing will happen to them. Nothing.

Not really. People make mistakes and should be allowed to learn from their mistakes and not repeat them. If they were going to intervene with the Phoenix, they'd have already apprehended Young Jean Grey, whom has contacted several of them and put them on notice that the PF is coming for her. Adult Jean is kind of irrelevant at this point

[CuteClops]

It's canon that the Avengers had Hope in their custody, and helped her fulfill her destiny.

Hope was ready... or Spider-man trained her? Oh really? LOL

And thank you for proving that Cable and Cyclops were right.

Cable: "this is the world if Hope doesn't fulfill her destiny."

[Hizashi]

See, that page right there shows how hypocritical Cap is. When Cyke told Cap they would take care of Hope and deal with their own, he was like "No, we're here to stop this. Get out of our way". But when the shoe is on the other foot and SW does something very bad, now Cap is singing a different tune.

That double-standard will continue being ignored, and those of us who disagree that the Avengers and X-Men were morally equivalent can't do anything about it. Nothing I can think of anyways.

[Star_Jammer]

Hope was ready... or Spider-man trained her? Oh really? LOL

And thank you for proving that Cable and Cyclops were right.

Cable: "this is the world if Hope doesn't fulfill her destiny."

Like I said, if you're arguing that what happened in the canon is silly, I agree.

big_huge_shrug.gif

[Hizashi]

Like I said, if you're arguing that what happened in the canon is silly, I agree.

big_huge_shrug.gif

I think he's been arguing that the Avengers were the villains of that story, in the same way that Tony was in CW or Carol in CWII.