Five Years Later, AvX: What really went wrong? Who was the reall villain?

[WallStreeter]

Captain America never had any intention of talking to Cyclops to find out what was going on. The Avengers looked bad in this. Though Captain America honestly THOUGHT he was listening to a Phoenix expert. He listened to Wolverine, who explictly said it was heading towards Hope. All the Avengers knew before this is that it was heading towards Earth and to be on alert. There would not have been a preemptive attack on Utopia had it not been for Wolverine's so called advice. Wolverine couldn't get over his obsession with Jean to think that the Phoenix might have a valid reason for coming to Earth, and as both plain Jean Grey and as the Phoenix she saved the world repeatedly. Hope had saved mutantkind from Bastion and his Nimrods, so there was no reason to doubt she couldn't save them from extinction like she ultimately did. Wolverine didn't care about anything beyond his losing Jean and his hating Scott/his stupid schism with Cyclops.

Mind you Cyclops had become a horrible person by this point. There were valid reasons for disagreeing with his leadership. But Wolverine should have dealt with that during dialog between X-men and not at a crisis time, and not by putting the Avengers into schism which is what he did. The fact Cap was dump enough to listen to Wolverine and dump enough to keep him in the Avengers after following his bad advice shows Caps poor judgement. Honestly the other X-men and Avengers should have called him out on it, but Cyclops and Emma had become dictators with their shares of the Phoenix, and Cyclops killed Xavier, making him look so horrible the Avengers or the X-men couldn't condemn Logan for dumping the gun and opposing Cyclops.

[WallStreeter]

I doubt AvX ever would have happened if not for Schism, which is a fault in Cyclops's horrible leadership. So I mainly blame Cyclops, Captain America (listening to Wolverine) and Wolverine himself.

Scott was right about the Phoenix saving mutantkind, but a bad person can be right about all sorts of things.

[KoriandrJean]

Captain America never had any intention of talking to Cyclops to find out what was going on. The Avengers looked bad in this. Though Captain America honestly THOUGHT he was listening to a Phoenix expert. He listened to Wolverine, who explictly said it was heading towards Hope. All the Avengers knew before this is that it was heading towards Earth and to be on alert. There would not have been a preemptive attack on Utopia had it not been for Wolverine's so called advice. Wolverine couldn't get over his obsession with Jean to think that the Phoenix might have a valid reason for coming to Earth, and as both plain Jean Grey and as the Phoenix she saved the world repeatedly. Hope had saved mutantkind from Bastion and his Nimrods, so there was no reason to doubt she couldn't save them from extinction like she ultimately did. Wolverine didn't care about anything beyond his losing Jean and his hating Scott/his stupid schism with Cyclops.

Mind you Cyclops had become a horrible person by this point. There were valid reasons for disagreeing with his leadership. But Wolverine should have dealt with that during dialog between X-men and not at a crisis time, and not by putting the Avengers into schism which is what he did. The fact Cap was dump enough to listen to Wolverine and dump enough to keep him in the Avengers after following his bad advice shows Caps poor judgement. Honestly the other X-men and Avengers should have called him out on it, but Cyclops and Emma had become dictators with their shares of the Phoenix, and Cyclops killed Xavier, making him look so horrible the Avengers or the X-men couldn't condemn Logan for dumping the gun and opposing Cyclops.

Are you serious?!! Captain America thought that Wolverine was an expert on the Phoenix?!!

Sadly though; it seems that Cyclops had indeed taken a turn for the far worse after Jean's second death, kicking his granddaughter in the stomach, etc.? But, can you give some examples of how Cyclops had become so terrible? And why?

(Personally, I'm looking at the Hellfire Club's White Queen - which the X-Men NEVER should have touched with a ten-foot pole, considering Phoenix and D'Bari ...)

But, I totally agree with you on that Captain America really looked bad here. Maybe they'd been setting him up for that Secret Empire heel turn for far longer than we thought ...

I doubt AvX ever would have happened if not for Schism, which is a fault in Cyclops's horrible leadership. So I mainly blame Cyclops, Captain America (listening to Wolverine) and Wolverine himself.

Scott was right about the Phoenix saving mutantkind, but a bad person can be right about all sorts of things.

How was Schism Cyclops' fault, though?

[WallStreeter]

Are you serious?!! Captain America thought that Wolverine was an expert on the Phoenix?!!

Sadly though; it seems that Cyclops had indeed taken a turn for the far worse after Jean's second death, kicking his granddaughter in the stomach, etc.? But, can you give some examples of how Cyclops had become so terrible? And why?

(Personally, I'm looking at the Hellfire Club's White Queen - which the X-Men NEVER should have touched with a ten-foot pole, considering Phoenix and D'Bari ...)

But, I totally agree with you on that Captain America really looked bad here. Maybe they'd been setting him up for that Secret Empire heel turn for far longer than we thought ...





How was Schism Cyclops' fault, though?

Captain America was listening to WOLVERINE. Cyclops had been increasingly dictatorial and worse, and that's why so many X-men, including most of the students, were eager to leave him for Wolverine, including his DAUGHTER. Before Cyclops's bad turn, the idea of any X-Men choosing Wolverine over Cyclops would have been laughable. Quesada ruined Cyclops as he sought to turn him into a dream alpha male.

[CuteClops]

Cyclops was never a dictator in the first place. He was a leader, a warrior and a savior. And the worst thing that happened to Scott was Alonso ruining him as he sought to turn Logan into a "dream" professor and leader. And then Alonso ruined Cyclops to promote the Avengers and Inhumans. Pathetic.

[Hizashi]

How can anyone see Cyke as a dictator when he was more than willing to let others leave with Logan. And wasn't it stated that Rachel was sent to Logan's school by Scott? Or is that fanon?

[oldscottsummers]

Captain America was listening to WOLVERINE. Cyclops had been increasingly dictatorial and worse, and that's why so many X-men, including most of the students, were eager to leave him for Wolverine, including his DAUGHTER. Before Cyclops's bad turn, the idea of any X-Men choosing Wolverine over Cyclops would have been laughable. Quesada ruined Cyclops as he sought to turn him into a dream alpha male.

Imo
Rachel has always been worthless ass daugher with mommy issues lol. Even Jean didnt want her. She wasnt Scott's real biological child as Cable. Scott should disown her. Who knows who her real father Wolverine, Bird?

Wolverine as leader X race? ridiculously

[Gray Lensman]

Are you serious?!! Captain America thought that Wolverine was an expert on the Phoenix?!!

Sadly though; it seems that Cyclops had indeed taken a turn for the far worse after Jean's second death, kicking his granddaughter in the stomach, etc.? But, can you give some examples of how Cyclops had become so terrible? And why?

(Personally, I'm looking at the Hellfire Club's White Queen - which the X-Men NEVER should have touched with a ten-foot pole, considering Phoenix and D'Bari ...)

But, I totally agree with you on that Captain America really looked bad here. Maybe they'd been setting him up for that Secret Empire heel turn for far longer than we thought ...





How was Schism Cyclops' fault, though?

Wolverine DID have a point during Schism, but he picked the worst possible time to bring it up, and wasn't looking for a discussion, but to dictate terms. Long-term, he had a point, but the immediate crisis was the time to follow Scott's path.

And for being such a dictator, Scott first offered to hold a vote (Logan refused to do that), then allowed anyone who wanted to leave to be able to go. That's not how a dictator acts. Just because people who disliked Cyclops on CBR called him one repeatedly did not make it true.

Scott hadn't become Magneto, he had become Cable.

[Hizashi]

Wolverine DID have a point during Schism, but he picked the worst possible time to bring it up, and wasn't looking for a discussion, but to dictate terms. Long-term, he had a point, but the immediate crisis was the time to follow Scott's path.

And for being such a dictator, Scott first offered to hold a vote (Logan refused to do that), then allowed anyone who wanted to leave to be able to go. That's not how a dictator acts. Just because people who disliked Cyclops on CBR called him one repeatedly did not make it true.

Scott hadn't become Magneto, he had become Cable.

The father becomes the son; only in the X-Men?

[JamJams]

TIL I've been reading comics for five years.

Happy Anniversary to me!

[Gray Lensman]

The father becomes the son; only in the X-Men?

Things like that are part of the charm.

[GarDian]

Through schism and beyond, Cyclops was the reasonable one. He still made it his mission to protect ALL mutants including those that left for Logan's school.

Its not true that everyone rushed to Wolvie's side. Even QQ was kidnapped to go there. Professor K switched sides not long after as well. Scott even conveyed that he also wanted what Wolverine wanted but just wasn't possible at that time.

And the irony was that NOTHING changed when Wolvie split up. They were targeted by the hellfire kids and the x-kids still had to fight. Just like in Utopia when they were attacked. Scott didn't send out X-kids on the offensive AFAIK, only defensive and only when absolutely necessary.

As for kicking Hope, I don't understand how one can argue that he wasn't training her enough and at the same time, overdoing it. It seems like you are just fault finding. Pick one. Was his training inadequate or too much?

[Punisher007]

The same thing happened here that happens in pretty much all of the "hero vs. hero" events that they do. Namely they HAVE to start writing everyone as ooc unreasonable trigger-happy idiots (actually, they do this A LOT with Cap in particular in these types of events now that I think about it). Because if characters were written IN-CHARACTER, or as anything other than petulant ten year olds, then the poorly-conceived premise cannot work. Same thing happened with CW, Schism, CW II, etc.

And also they conveniently ignore any and all continuity that doesn't fit what they want to story to be. All of the times that The Phoenix didn't destroy everything=ignored. Rachel's years of successfully controlling The Phoenix, heck Rachel in-general=Almost completely ignored. Jean's other times as Phoenix host=ignored, etc.

They seemed to want the reader to believe that DPS was the last time that The Phoenix came to Earth (BTW, they ignored a lot of the context for THAT story as well), or that The Phoenix is always bad.

Basically, it's lazy writing at it's finest. Twist everything and everyone into a ooc pretzel character/plot-wise just to try and crowbar them into your dumb premise, instead of, oh I don't know, writing a premise in a way that actually fits/respects the characters/continuity/history/etc.