Thread Drift: What is your problem with Post-Crisis Superman?

[Agent Z]

1. Erased the beginning of his career as Superboy and his relationship with the Legion
2. Clark Kent was a yuppie jock and was who Superman identified as
3. Ma and Pa Kent stayed alive
4. Cold sterile Krypton
5. No Cousin Supergirl
6. No Super Intelligence
7. Born on Earth (WTF@#$%#$%^!!!!)
8. They rarely showed him inspiring the other Superheroes

Aside from the Legion and his cousin, I don't recall pre-crisis Superman inspiring that many heroes either. Hell, post crisis inspired more heroes with Kara, Connor and Steel and was regularly shown as being admired and respected. Even the Elite were shown to admire him.

[Jon Clark]

I'm currently doing a massive read through of the character & so far I'm not a fan of how he basically dismisses Jor-El's message & history as "useless" since Earth was his home & made him who he was. Now I'm all for Superman being Clark Kent rather than Kal-El since let's face it Earth was more of a home than the Planet he spent a total of 2 days on before it died but come on, you can at least respect the memory of entire civilization that's been dead for years man.

To be fair how much would you really care if you found out you were directly descended from some ancient Sumerian and given a full understanding of that culture? Would knowing what happened in 1500BC really impact your daily life? Would you feel the need to teach others about Sumeria or would it be "that's cool, now what's on TV tonight"?

[Soubhagya]

I'm currently doing a massive read through of the character & so far I'm not a fan of how he basically dismisses Jor-El's message & history as "useless" since Earth was his home & made him who he was. Now I'm all for Superman being Clark Kent rather than Kal-El since let's face it Earth was more of a home than the Planet he spent a total of 2 days on before it died but come on, you can at least respect the memory of entire civilization that's been dead for years man.

Didn't he say that he will 'always cherish' the memories Jor-El and Lara gave him? It is appropriate when he has been Clark Kent for 25+ years. By useless he meant that whatever he is that is due to Earth. Ultimately his powers come from Krypton while everything else is due to Earth.

[DJ1107]

To be fair how much would you really care if you found out you were directly descended from some ancient Sumerian and given a full understanding of that culture? Would knowing what happened in 1500BC really impact your daily life? Would you feel the need to teach others about Sumeria or would it be "that's cool, now what's on TV tonight"?

Fair point but at the same time if my Birth-father essentially saved me from a Planet wide genocide I'd at least try to honor it in someway.

Didn't he say that he will 'always cherish' the memories Jor-El and Lara gave him? It is appropriate when he has been Clark Kent for 25+ years. By useless he meant that whatever he is that is due to Earth. Ultimately his powers come from Krypton while everything else is due to Earth.

Had to go back & read it but yeah he did say he'll cherish the memories simply as "momentos of a life that could've been". I don't know it still feels off to me.

[Soubhagya]

Fair point but at the same time if my Birth-father essentially saved me from a Planet wide genocide I'd at least try to honor it in someway.



Had to go back & read it but yeah he did say he'll cherish the memories simply as "momentos of a life that could've been". I don't know it still feels off to me.

It is not off actually. It essentially means that nothing changes by his knowledge that he is from Krypton. He is still the same Clark Kent, the same Superman due to Earth. His Kryptonian origin is not so important, except for the fact that they are the reason behind his powers. Everything else: the feelings, the desires, the education, the values, the relationships, even his life's mission and more. Everything that is important to him comes from Earth. Krypton is something which might have been. Obviously, he is respectful of Krypton. He 'cherishes' those memories. He knows that Kryptonian blood flows in his veins but everything else that makes him a person is from Earth. He is human even though technically he is not human.

I searched for 'cherish' in the oxford dictionary. It says:
-Protect and care for (someone) lovingly
-Hold (something) dear
-Keep (a hope or ambition) in one's mind

He holds Krypton's memories dear. Of this there is no doubt.

But if you feel off its fine. Its okay for me.

[TruthAndJustice]

I think we are not quite talking about the same thing.

The point that I was trying to make isn't how does the 1986 Superman fit in with the 1986 League. It's that since the 1986 Superman was now supposedly the Superman who had involved in every in continuity story published BEFORE 1986, his lesser power levels raise a question about things like past JLA stories where Superman played a part. Just how much of the JLA's history in 1986 was still valid if Superman was never a member (nor were Batman or Wonder Woman)? And even in those stories where Superman was said to have participated like the meeting with the New Gods, just how was the story changed by having a weaker Superman?

The original point by super-duper is that some characters like Superman or Batman are involved in so much of the DCU backstory that if you radically alter those characters' history you also create a ripple effect through the whole DCU. Stating that Batman was considered an urban myth for his whole career might be workable in the Bat-titles, but it also impacts the Titans (if there is no "real" Batman what did people think of the Robin who led the public Titans in New York), the JLA (how does Batman's JLA adventures jibe with him not being seen in public), Superman (any World's Finest story that had Batman making a public appearance) ... And changing Superman from his Pre-Crisis self to his Post-Crisis self does the same thing- Dick Grayson's Nightwing ID no longer has any Kandorian inspiration, without a Golden Age Superman what made the JSA recruit Power Girl, who sponsored Firestorm for JLA membership if Superman wasn't a member himself, did any of the Flash/Superman races still happen (and if so was Barry that much slower since Superman now wasn't much faster than the de-powered Wally) ...

As I recall the explanation was that J'onn J'onzz never left the JLA and filled in for stories where Superman was "supposed to be."

Eventually it was made clear that Superman told Dick Grayson a story about Nightwing and Flamebird and that was the inspiration for Dick changing superhero names.

The rest...damned if I know. Barry ran deliberately slower so Superman could be neck-and-neck with him?

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah... I guess I don't get the overall point, Jon Clark. Those things in total involve so much more than the Superman staff would have on their plate. How Robin becomes Nightwing...that can just go to whoever was writing Dick, who would then have the option to just keep moving instead of digging out from where they stand. Regarding Superman, even if they said that Superman was once a member and kept his crazy powers, it still wouldn't make sense of everything new the company was trying.

I don't know how creators would have approached all those things, but as a reader the point was just to ignore the stuff from before the fall of 1986 and it would really all work better.

[superduperman]

I think one of the biggest issues that many of us had with the post-Crisis Superman was the attitude of many of his fans that if you liked what came before you were childish. That the pre-Crisis version was stupid and that Superman was so much more "realistic" now. And DC itself almost seemed to re-enforce that idea at the time. The guy still came from a planet named after an Earth element and lived in a city that is a generic term for a city. No offense, but "realistic" is a relative term here. Sort of like the Nolan movies were "realistic" for Batman. Except they did their job a little too well. You begin to realize half his rogues gallery couldn't be used for those movies because they aren't realistic. There is no realistic way to do someone like Mr. Freeze, for instance. TAS came about as close as you can get. Or Poison Ivy. Or Clayface. Anyone with actual powers was out. Just look at the problems they ran into with Bane. And he's one of the more "down to Earth" villains. "Guy on super-steroids" isn't that big of a stretch in terms of comics yet they still had trouble making him work. It's then you start to see that a vigilante who dresses up as a bat having the full support of law enforcement is a silly concept in and of itself and there's no way around it.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

He listens to Van Halen.

[Kuwagaton]

ROFL. That's awesome. That's so Clark. If someone does find that lame, I have to immediately cede to their opinion because it is utterly dorky but I love it. I bet that's a denim shirt, too.

[SpideyCeo]

He hasnt proven himself beyond goku as a fun and charming way. Still not doing it, his son and china man are more fun than him nowadays.

[daBronzeBomma]

He hasnt proven himself beyond goku as a fun and charming way. Still not doing it, his son and china man are more fun than him nowadays.

Goku is an idiot. And a horrible father.

[Ascended]

To be fair how much would you really care if you found out you were directly descended from some ancient Sumerian and given a full understanding of that culture? Would knowing what happened in 1500BC really impact your daily life? Would you feel the need to teach others about Sumeria or would it be "that's cool, now what's on TV tonight"?

Its not really a proper comparison though. Sure, if you came from a dead civilization it wouldn't have much of an impact on your life. But really, if you care to dig deep, every person on earth is descended from a dead culture.

Despite that, there's still seven billion members of the human race running amok. None of us are alone in the least and never have been.

Clark on the other hand, is the last of his kind (or one of the last depending on continuity and era). We cannot truly comprehend what that feels like. To know that not only are we from a dead culture, but a dead species.

That deserves more than just a hand-wave of "Oh, sure, I respect and cherish my homeworld.....now let's get a burger!"

Not to mention, one of Clark's big motivations in pre-Crisis was make sure he didn't lose another world. That entire mindset doesn't work when he doesn't actually care about his first one.

[DochaDocha]

A lot of this also depends on the person. Like, imagine a history fanatic discovered she was the only missing link to an ancient civilization, or discovered the only existing clues about that civilization's existence. She might spend every last free moment she has to cultivate her knowledge or making sure that knowledge gets preserved and passed down somehow.

I personally am of the belief that Superman happens to care a lot. Maybe not as much as aforementioned history fanatic, but it's going to be more than a passing curiosity. I'd say he'd feel responsibility toward it.

[SiegePerilous02]

Its not really a proper comparison though. Sure, if you came from a dead civilization it wouldn't have much of an impact on your life. But really, if you care to dig deep, every person on earth is descended from a dead culture.

Despite that, there's still seven billion members of the human race running amok. None of us are alone in the least and never have been.

Clark on the other hand, is the last of his kind (or one of the last depending on continuity and era). We cannot truly comprehend what that feels like. To know that not only are we from a dead culture, but a dead species.

That deserves more than just a hand-wave of "Oh, sure, I respect and cherish my homeworld.....now let's get a burger!"

Not to mention, one of Clark's big motivations in pre-Crisis was make sure he didn't lose another world. That entire mindset doesn't work when he doesn't actually care about his first one.

All of this.

Plus there is also the fact that his biological mother and father loved him enough to do all they could to get him off the planet and are the whole reason the Kents found him in the first place. He didn't know them, but I think trying to learn more about them and their culture is pretty normal. To just dismiss them is disrespectful as all get out, even if they logically can't eclipse the Kents in his heart, as they were the ones who actually raised him.