Is Bruce Wayne Jewish?

[Aahz]

And currently, he was in the military.

But not necessary at the time this "The Clash" scene is coming from.

[Tenzel Kim]

I think you answered your own question.

Did I? Yes we saw Menorah in that one issue, but why is that given more importance than the hundreds of times we've seen a cross on her gravestone. Or do Jews also use crosses on their gravestones? I honestly don't know.

Also the fact that Jake Kane stopped celebrating Hanukkah when he remarried could mean that he was never Jewish and that he was "just" bringing up the girls in the Jewish faith in honor of his deceased wife. Of course, it could also mean that it was just not a big deal to him and that when he married a Christian he simply adopted her ways.

My point is that I haven't been able to find anything conclusive. I don't think it is at all unlikely that the Kane's were Jewish but based on the evidence at this point (that I've been able to find) I'm not sure it can be stated as a certainty.

[Caivu]

Did I? Yes we saw Menorah in that one issue, but why is that given more importance than the hundreds of times we've seen a cross on her gravestone.

Because that's what's current. If you want an in-story reason, it could be because Martha converted to Christianity. We do know that her marriage to Thomas was not looked on favorably by the other Kanes, and that could reasonably be an element of that. Or the headstone maker just did a rush job, also reasonable given their sudden deaths.

My point is that I haven't been able to find anything conclusive. I don't think it is at all unlikely that the Kane's were Jewish but based on the evidence at this point (that I've been able to find) I'm not sure it can be stated as a certainty.

Why is this even in question? I don't understand why people make this so difficult.

[Tenzel Kim]

Because that's what's current. If you want an in-story reason, it could be because Martha converted to Christianity. We do know that her marriage to Thomas was not looked on favorably by the other Kanes, and that could reasonably be an element of that. Or the headstone maker did a rush job, also reasonable given their sudden deaths.

Why is this even in question? I don't understand why people make this so difficult.

I'm not trying to make it difficult. I've got absolutely no problem with the Kane's being Jewish and Bruce as well because of that.

I'm just trying to figure out what it is that makes everyone so certain that this is the case, as it doesn't seem so cut and dry to me. I've seen this discussion pop up now and again, so I was just wondering if I had missed some clues or facts or if it was mostly just based on the presence of the Menorah.

We know that the animosity between the Kane's and the Wayne's started before Martha's marriage to Thomas, but you are right that if they were Jewish her marrying a Christian would not have helped.

[Mia]

From a 2014 jewishweek.timesofisrael.com article on the matter:

[COLOR="#000080"]"The final piece in this puzzle is “Batwoman” #25, written by Marc Andreyko and released a few months ago. In it, Kane talks to Bruce Wayne, and mentions that they’re first cousins. That would make his mother her paternal aunt, so if Kane’s father is Jewish, so was Martha. And if Martha is Jewish, that makes Batman Jewish by strict halachic standards.

I think that's wrong. Being Jewish is determined through the mother not the father. It's my understanding that two Wayne brothers (I think the grandfathers of Bruce and Kate) married. One married a Jewish woman who is Kate's grandmother, but the other married a gentile. So Kate would be Jewish but Bruce wouldn't. I never read the Morison book where Bruce/Batman calls himself an atheist, but Joe Kelly did bring it up during his run. I always saw Bruce's lack of religion as being more as someone who was not on speaking terms with the Divine. Than some out and out Richard Dawkins acolyte.

[mrbrklyn]

I know that. But I find it extremely hard to believe that punk music was popular with anyone in the military during that time, given its anti-authority tendencies.



And currently, he was in the military.



How? That goes against everything I know about the general attitudes toward punk music at the time.



Being raised Christian does not mean one isn't Jewish. Both can be true.

I was in the army at the time and the Clash was very popular in the army. There is no point to really discuss this further.

This is a public service anouncment... WITH GUITAR!!

[Caivu]

I think that's wrong. Being Jewish is determined through the mother not the father. It's my understanding that two Wayne brothers (I think the grandfathers of Bruce and Kate) married. One married a Jewish woman who is Kate's grandmother, but the other married a gentile. So Kate would be Jewish but Bruce wouldn't. I never read the Morison book where Bruce/Batman calls himself an atheist, but Joe Kelly did bring it up during his run. I always saw Bruce's lack of religion as being more as someone who was not on speaking terms with the Divine. Than some out and out Richard Dawkins acolyte.

Martha was Jewish, therefore Bruce is. He doesn't have to be observant for that to be true.

I was in the army at the time and the Clash was very popular in the army. There is no point to really discuss this further.

That is extremely strange to me, but okay.

[Restingvoice]

Being raised Christian does not mean one isn't Jewish. Both can be true.

I think I get what you mean, Caivu, but I feel this is the kind of thing that will be confusing to people, like "Wait, how is he Jewish when he's being raised or practiced Christianity. Did you mean race or religion?"

[Tenzel Kim]

I think that's wrong. Being Jewish is determined through the mother not the father. It's my understanding that two Wayne brothers (I think the grandfathers of Bruce and Kate) married. One married a Jewish woman who is Kate's grandmother, but the other married a gentile. So Kate would be Jewish but Bruce wouldn't.

You're wrong on the linage. Bruce's grandfather on his mother's side was Roderick Kane. He fathered four children: Martha, Jacob, Phillip and Nathan. We know that Kate who is Jacob's daughter is Jewish. We know that Jacob's wife had the Star of David on her tombstone. That could mean one of two things. Either both she and Jacob were of Jewish linage which would make Kate Jewish as well, or only she was Jewish which would also make Kate Jewish.

If both Jacob and his wife were Jewish, then we can conclude that Jacob's siblings including Martha would be Jewish as well, and by extent so would Bruce. However, if only Kate's mother was Jewish then Kate would still be Jewish but Jacob and Martha wouldn't, and neither would Bruce.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

I think I get what you mean, Caivu, but I feel this is the kind of thing that will be confusing to people, like "Wait, how is he Jewish when he's being raised or practiced Christianity. Did you mean race or religion?"

You're wrong on the linage. Bruce's grandfather on his mother's side was Roderick Kane. He fathered four children: Martha, Jacob, Phillip and Nathan. We know that Kate who is Jacob's daughter is Jewish. We know that Jacob's wife had the Star of David on her tombstone. That could mean one of two things. Either both she and Jacob were of Jewish linage which would make Kate Jewish as well, or only she was Jewish which would also make Kate Jewish.

If both Jacob and his wife were Jewish, then we can conclude that Jacob's siblings including Martha would be Jewish as well, and by extent so would Bruce. However, if only Kate's mother was Jewish then Kate would still be Jewish but Jacob and Martha wouldn't, and neither would Bruce.

Isn't the race thing determined by the mother? So it would HAVE to be Kate's mother that was Jewish? Otherwise can't anyone just convert?

[Tenzel Kim]

Isn't the race thing determined by the mother? So it would HAVE to be Kate's mother that was Jewish? Otherwise can't anyone just convert?

Hence my point that in both scenarios I set up Kate’s mother was Jewish. But her father could be Jewish as well and if that was the case so would her grandmother on her father’s side and she is also Martha’s mother which would then make Bruce Jewish as well.

[Celgress]

The way I look at it somebody else shouldn't be able to label a person or define their identity. If a person doesn't want to be Jewish & has never practiced Judaism they are not simply Jewish because of birth. And before anyone pulls out the whole "ethnicity card" that is not as clear-cut as one would think. There are Sub Saharan Jews from what is today Ethiopia. These so-called "Black Jews" were brought into the religion so legend has it by the son of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba not directly by a blood link (at least in the majority of cases). Religion and ethnicity are often intertwined or just as easily disconnected from each other. Even if we accept Bruce is "Jewish" because of his mother's heritage then he is only "Half Jewish" because his father's family were not Jews. Furthermore, some sects of Jews still believe only in patrilineal descent or "Jewishness" passing exclusively through the father's line. In closing what would be a more accurate description of Bruce's situation is that he had a Jewish mother.

[mrbrklyn]

Martha was Jewish, therefore Bruce is. He doesn't have to be observant for that to be true.



That is extremely strange to me, but okay.

well, then you missed Apacolypse Now and misunderstand soldiers.

Rockie the Casba..

[Caivu]

well, then you missed Apacolypse Now and misunderstand soldiers.

Except I didn't, and that would be different from the sort of situation Alfred would've been in.

[John Venus]

Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve never seen Batman as an atheist. Nolan Batman or some alt-reality Punisher MAX Batman where he’s the only dude out there and he’s still uberpissed about his parents murder? Yeah, I could totally get him not buying into the idea of God, and being all angry about it like “if God exists, my mom and dad wouldn’t be dead right now.”

I feel like, while, in our reality, the idea of atheism meshes very well with Bruce’s characterization as a logical personality who values reason above all else, that dynamic sort of inverts itself when you place it within the confines of a reality where he eats dinner with Supermen and Wonder Women, has killed and been killed by New Gods, and so forth. Now, whether or not he “believes” in God in that he puts his faith in this being is one thing, but, I think, being the logical mind that he is, he would probably be far more likely to consider that “yes, this being could very well exist” when measured against all of his own experiences.

Atheism as we know it wouldn't exist in the DCU but I imagine Agnosticism would be very popular among certain people. I have gotten into this debate with other people but I just can't see Bruce as a worshiper. Maybe a mild form of Buddhism. Hard Agnostic maybe. I can imagine him saying in the gravely Kevin Conroy voice that just because Gods exist doesn't mean he has to worship them.

Existence of super beings would reinforce certain people's faith while defusing others while also leading to the rise of other religious groups that would challenge the existing major world religions.