Is it time for a hard reboot on Spidey?

[Prof. Warren]

By your logic then no story would ever matter. Fans shouldn't care about continuity or even the character himself. Spidey can become a space cadet and it would fine because it could be undone.

No, by my logic, fans who demand stories that deliver "permanent change" in their superhero comics are asking for something that they've never had in the first place.

"Permanent change" just isn't a thing in superhero comics. The stories matter due to their execution, not because they made a change that couldn't be undone.

Kraven's Last Hunt isn't diminished because Kraven's climatic suicide ended up not being his final curtain call.

The death of Aunt May in ASM #400 is still powerful even though it ended up being a hoax.

And so on.

And continuity absolutely matters because stories continually build off of others to create a constantly unfolding tapestry.

[Tuck]

I know people like Grim Hunt and Shed, but they had no business being mainstream Spider-Man stories.

Occult human sacrifices and manipulating a guy into eating his son.

Let's let David Fincher direct a Spider-Man movie while we're at it. Jesus.

[boots]

Dude, it's just comics, you need to chill or quit reading.

when obvious hyperbole ain’t so obvious

i can see why that sentence was as frustrating as “alternative facts”

[blackspidey2099]

I know people like Grim Hunt and Shed, but they had no business being mainstream Spider-Man stories.

Occult human sacrifices and manipulating a guy into eating his son.

Let's let David Fincher direct a Spider-Man movie while we're at it. Jesus.

I'm not sure what from that description precludes either story from being a Spidey comic. Not all Spidey comics need to be lighthearted humor fests - in fact, one of the things I personally enjoy about Spidey's comics is the variety in tone you can get from various stories. And while it's fine if you don't like the subject matter, it's also fine if others do. (tbh, while I can see why there's an argument that Shed goes too far, I can't fathom why anyone thinks Grim Hunt is too violent, when compared to the hundreds of other times in Spidey history where people die).

[boots]

No, by my logic, fans who demand stories that deliver "permanent change" in their superhero comics are asking for something that they've never had in the first place.

"Permanent change" just isn't a thing in superhero comics. The stories matter due to their execution, not because they made a change that couldn't be undone.

Kraven's Last Hunt isn't diminished because Kraven's climatic suicide ended up not being his final curtain call.

The death of Aunt May in ASM #400 is still powerful even though it ended up being a hoax.

And so on.

And continuity absolutely matters because stories continually build off of others to create a constantly unfolding tapestry.

idk man, don't you think it might be a case by case thing? that the rules apply by degrees dependent on the context?

permanence/death has a powerful effect that can be diluted by its reversal. the spidey mythos would lose something if uncle ben came back or even gwen. i think we can apply something similar to spidey's villains.

as good as i hear the red hood and winter soldier stories are, i feel they have somewhat watered down the overall mythic stature of batman and captain america. they represented fundamental lessons and mistakes in the heroe's journey.

and it's not just death. removing the open ended nature of moore's watchmen, no matter how fun rebirth is, messes with the original conclusion's thought exercise.

i understand that superhero comics (and marvel in particular) operate by different rules than the majority of fiction, and on the whole i agree that a story's quality stands somewhat alone (asm 400 will always be a great read to me whether or not may came back. but that's because i flat out reject the actress explanation in my head canon. if i accepted it, then asm 400 becomes a joke), but there is a cumulative quality that naturally comes with long term continuity that can dampen the overall effect. if there wasn't a cumulative effect, then there would be no point to having continuity in the first place. even if it is all an illusion.

on the one hand, i think the revolving door soap opera nature of superhero stories is part of the charm (comfort food on recycle), but that there can and should be certain untouchable milestones that continuity continues to respect. personally, i think kraven's last hunt was one of those.

[boots]

I'm not sure what from that description precludes either story from being a Spidey comic. Not all Spidey comics need to be lighthearted humor fests - in fact, one of the things I personally enjoy about Spidey's comics is the variety in tone you can get from various stories. And while it's fine if you don't like the subject matter, it's also fine if others do. (tbh, while I can see why there's an argument that Shed goes too far, I can't fathom why anyone thinks Grim Hunt is too violent, when compared to the hundreds of other times in Spidey history where people die).

yeah, i'm in two minds about this. when i was little, i remember finding a lot of spidey stories from mcfarlane or featuring venom to be up there with stephen king's IT in terms of being terrifying. but i don't remember grim hunt too well. it's hard to compare what i read as a kid vs as an adult

[Bor]

I know people like Grim Hunt and Shed, but they had no business being mainstream Spider-Man stories.

Occult human sacrifices and manipulating a guy into eating his son.

Let's let David Fincher direct a Spider-Man movie while we're at it. Jesus.

And yet one of the most celebrated Spidey stories of all time is him getting beaten up, buried alive, someone running around in his costume while graphicly hurting enemies before he ends up killing himself.

[boots]

And yet one of the most celebrated Spidey stories of all time is him getting beaten up, buried alive, someone running around in his costume while graphicly hurting enemies before he ends up killing himself.

i get the feeling that tuck means that the occult and cannabalism is beyond the usually “acceptable” violence in a mainstream spidey. that somewhat ties into the beliefs in demons conversation too.

klh is grim but it ain’t s7en

[Bor]

i get the feeling that tuck means that the occult and cannabalism is beyond the usually “acceptable” violence in a mainstream spidey. that somewhat ties into the beliefs in demons conversation too.

klh is grim but it ain’t s7en

I know what he means and my point stil stands. Suicide and being buried alive is not really that different.
I donw see how bloing of your own head is somehow more “acceptable”.

[boots]

I know what he means and my point stil stands. Suicide and being buried alive is not really that different.
I donw see how bloing of your own head is somehow more “acceptable”.

it’s a fair discussion to have. unfortunately, suicide is commonplace whereas tales of people cooking up their loved ones are still particularly sensational and rare. i think there’s an extra level of horror for the majority of people, even if there isn’t for you

[WebLurker]

Let's see:

New Ways To Die, American Son, Shed, Grim Hunt, Big Time, No One Dies, Spider-Island, maybe Ends of the Earth, Dying Wish (though I guess that counts as Superior), Spider-Verse, Worldwide. And that's only in the main ASM. Outside of that, there's been stuff like Flash Thompson Venom, Scarlet Spider Kaine, Spider-Man 2099, Spider-Gwen, etc. that have all been awesome as well.

I think it's still too early to know what of the modern comics will stick and what's going to get lost in the fog of time.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

As much as I dislike OMD and some of the other stories my answer is no. A hard reboot would not work. You'd have to reboot the entire universe for it to work. Plus there has been good stories to come from the spider-house and you would end up alienating the fans of those series.

[Miles To Go]

Let's see:

New Ways To Die, American Son, Shed, Grim Hunt, Big Time, No One Dies, Spider-Island, maybe Ends of the Earth, Dying Wish (though I guess that counts as Superior), Spider-Verse, Worldwide. And that's only in the main ASM. Outside of that, there's been stuff like Flash Thompson Venom, Scarlet Spider Kaine, Spider-Man 2099, Spider-Gwen, etc. that have all been awesome as well.

I was specifically meaning Slott.

And I meant memorable for the right reasons, not just shock-value car crash quality.

[Bor]

it’s a fair discussion to have. unfortunately, suicide is commonplace whereas tales of people cooking up their loved ones are still particularly sensational and rare. i think there’s an extra level of horror for the majority of people, even if there isn’t for you

Yeah but thats not just what happened. We had a case of a father loosing his mind killing his son.
That happens every single day.
Also being buried alive for weeks like the story I mentiond is also not something that happens everyday nor do I see how that is really any less horrific. So no I think people who wants to pretend that Shed somehow stands alone here is being too selective with their Spidey history.

[Bor]

I was specifically meaning Slott.

And I meant memorable for the right reasons, not just shock-value car crash quality.

No what you seem to mean is “for the reason I like and my taste in stories”.
There are plenty of stories that are a whole lot less woth remembering then what we have gotten from Slott.
I loved JMS`s run but I will surely argue that plenty of his stories are less memorable then a whole lot of slotts stories. Spider-Island, Ends of the earth, Spider-verse and plenty of others are a whooole lot more memorable then Spidey going up against a wasp like supernatural enemy, a fusion of several gangsters from the 50s or half of those stories.