DCEU Superman Appreciation 2018

[stargazer01]

I think directors and studios need to listen to someone after a movie isn't successful enough. And I think they do listen to critics, BO results and fan consensus. The problem is sometimes they don't get the right message. Like Man of Steel, for instance. What did WB and Snyder did? They went even darker and we know the rest of the story..

On some good news.. I see a lot of fan (and even non fans) approval for The Death of Superman animated movie all over the net. Everyone agrees that Superman's portrayal and the story in this movie is done very well that even puts BvS and JL to shame. I can't help but agree that this movie is what a live action Superman movie should have been. It makes me dislike BvS a bit more.

I wish Peter Tomasi was involved in writing the next solo Superman movie because I think he really gets Superman the way I like it and the way most seem to do.

[Clark_Kent]

I think directors and studios need to listen to someone after a movie isn't successful enough. And I think they do listen to critics, BO results and fan consensus. The problem is sometimes they don't get the right message. Like Man of Steel, for instance. What did WB and Snyder did? They went even darker and we know the rest of the story..

On some good news.. I see a lot of fan (and even non fans) approval for The Death of Superman animated movie all over the net. Everyone agrees that Superman's portrayal and the story in this movie is done very well that even puts BvS and JL to shame. I can't help but agree that this movie is what a live action Superman movie should have been. It makes me dislike BvS a bit more.

I wish Peter Tomasi was involved in writing the next solo Superman movie because I think he really gets Superman the way I like it and the way most seem to do.

When you're creating a shared universe, you should stick to your roadmap and definitely not listen to outside sources. I guarantee Marvel would not bat an eye if they released a film that got butchered by critics and made no money, they would just keep trucking. Now if they had 3 or more in a row, they would probably make changes but they still wouldn't listen to outside sources. Contrast that to WB...after the BvS critiques, they butchered whatever movie Ayer was making with Suicide Squad. Would his original vision have fared better with critics? Who knows. But the version they released, due to BvS backlash, certainly failed to impress critics (I love the Hell out of it, but I digress). They stuck to their roadmap for Wonder Woman, and it was great. With JL, which was in production before WW came out, they again kneejerked after Suicide Squad and look at the Frankenstein monster we got.

The better option for WB would have been to let Ayer (who is not Snyder) do his thing, and let Snyder finish his Justice League. Then, after "phase one" was complete, you evaluate what worked, what didn't, and you move forward. If they had done this, perhaps Ayer & Snyder are still making DC movies. And perhaps not. We'll never know. We do know Snyder had a 5-film plan, and if JL had still tanked then you can alter it at that point. But the last thing you do is listen to critics who only see Reeve as Superman, or fans who just want 1 to 1 retellings of books they've already read. Fan consensus is never a consensus; it's a small group of like-minded people who say "it needs to be done MY way." And everyone who doesn't agree with that sentiment isn't included in the "fan consensus."

I've been a fan of Superman since 1986, and Snyder's version is my favorite live action version. Does that make me "not a fan" since my preference doesn't align with others here? Does it make others "not a fan" because theirs don't align with mine?

[stargazer01]

When you're creating a shared universe, you should stick to your roadmap and definitely not listen to outside sources. I guarantee Marvel would not bat an eye if they released a film that got butchered by critics and made no money, they would just keep trucking. Now if they had 3 or more in a row, they would probably make changes but they still wouldn't listen to outside sources. Contrast that to WB...after the BvS critiques, they butchered whatever movie Ayer was making with Suicide Squad. Would his original vision have fared better with critics? Who knows. But the version they released, due to BvS backlash, certainly failed to impress critics (I love the Hell out of it, but I digress). They stuck to their roadmap for Wonder Woman, and it was great. With JL, which was in production before WW came out, they again kneejerked after Suicide Squad and look at the Frankenstein monster we got.

The better option for WB would have been to let Ayer (who is not Snyder) do his thing, and let Snyder finish his Justice League. Then, after "phase one" was complete, you evaluate what worked, what didn't, and you move forward. If they had done this, perhaps Ayer & Snyder are still making DC movies. And perhaps not. We'll never know. We do know Snyder had a 5-film plan, and if JL had still tanked then you can alter it at that point. But the last thing you do is listen to critics who only see Reeve as Superman, or fans who just want 1 to 1 retellings of books they've already read. Fan consensus is never a consensus; it's a small group of like-minded people who say "it needs to be done MY way." And everyone who doesn't agree with that sentiment isn't included in the "fan consensus."

I've been a fan of Superman since 1986, and Snyder's version is my favorite live action version. Does that make me "not a fan" since my preference doesn't align with others here? Does it make others "not a fan" because theirs don't align with mine?

I don't agree with this. I think the best approach would have been to do a solo Superman sequel with a more confident and optimistic Superman instead of going darker and grittier like BvS. BvS was a mistake that wasted the iconic Death of Superman story. IMO, the Death of Superman should have happened much later when audiences and fans were more emotionally invested in this Superman and the rest of the characters.

And Wonder Woman worked better due to Patty J. whose style isn't like Snyder's. She knew how to make a crowd pleaser that audiences and fans alike could enjoy and embrace.

I also think that something was not right with Snyder's cut of JL that WB lost total confidence in him. Some think he was going for more Injustice Superman and after how BvS was received, I can see why WB got scared. I think the best should have been to do a full stop after BvS and delay JL to work on the story/script longer. But they couldn't do it so they did what they did. I still enjoy JL, but it's clear that it could have been a lot better. I do enjoy it more than BvS, tho.. and that says a lot. At least I loved those characters more, especially Supes.

[manofsteel1979]

The Last Jedi is what usually comes to mind when I see anyone say "listen to the fans". "Kennedy needs to listen to the fans! Lucasarts needs to ask the fans what they want!"

No. No they do not. lol

If they would have listened to the fans in Star Wars case, Rey would have immediately been sidelined by a Luke Skywalker powerful enough to crash Star Destroyers with a wink and the ultimate gary stu power fantasy made manifest. Oh and Boba Fett would have popped up for no apparent reason.

I was overall lukewarm ( pun not intended...but will accept) to TLJ. I was disappointed in some things and now certain aspects turned out, but it still turned out multiple times better than the tripe that some of these loud " Rian Johnson and Kathy Kennedy ruined my life!" malcontents would have given us had they had been in charge. As far as I'm concerned they are in the same camp as the over the top yelling about Man of Steel.

Constructive criticism being listened to is one thing. Specifically catering to the fans is another. The later basically guarentees long term failure.

[stargazer01]

Personally, I didn't like TLJ much. I felt it was a mess, but I did like some things. I can totally understand why many fans hated it, tho. I can't hate it because I'm not a big Star Wars fan, so I don't care much, but I didn't like Luke in it much, and he was the character I wanted to see the most.

Superman is another story. I'm a big fan, so I care a lot more. I think it's clear that WB want to go on a lighter tone now. The Aquaman and Shazam trailers/films seem more mainstream and less dark. They feel like something in the middle. I think Wonder Woman set the tone for the next movies.

[Clark_Kent]

I don't agree with this. I think the best approach would have been to do a solo Superman sequel with a more confident and optimistic Superman instead of going darker and grittier like BvS. BvS was a mistake that wasted the iconic Death of Superman story. IMO, the Death of Superman should have happened much later when audiences and fans were more emotionally invested in this Superman and the rest of the characters.

And Wonder Woman worked better due to Patty J. whose style isn't like Snyder's. She knew how to make a crowd pleaser that audiences and fans alike could enjoy and embrace.

I also think that something was not right with Snyder's cut of JL that WB lost total confidence in him. Some think he was going for more Injustice Superman and after how BvS was received, I can see why WB got scared. I think the best should have been to do a full stop after BvS and delay JL to work on the story/script longer. But they couldn't do it so they did what they did. I still enjoy JL, but it's clear that it could have been a lot better. I do enjoy it more than BvS, tho.. and that says a lot. At least I loved those characters more, especially Supes.

Well we can agree to disagree right at the start, because I've seen "dark & gritty" movies and BvS was neither. Was it dark-er than a lot of superhero films? Sure. But it doesn't mean it was "dark, man" or gritty (which is a term people have made me hate with their misuse of it).

Patty made a great film because WB allowed her to do so. She received very little interference. The same can't be said for any other DCEU film thus far, with exception to Man of Steel which had Christopher Nolan for a shield. BvS was chopped up at the 11th hour, a trailer producing company was given SS at the 11th hour, and we all know what happened with JL. I agree that they should have delayed the film if they lost faith in Snyder, but the fact is they didn't, and should have let him finish his movie. You just simply can't fire a guy and replace him with someone who is stylistically the complete opposite, and expect results.

This is all neither here nor there, though. The original idea I responded to was about "listening to fans" and being "respectful"...the very fact that you & I are on opposite ends of this opinion shows that listening to the fans simply does not work.

[Clark_Kent]

If they would have listened to the fans in Star Wars case, Rey would have immediately been sidelined by a Luke Skywalker powerful enough to crash Star Destroyers with a wink and the ultimate gary stu power fantasy made manifest. Oh and Boba Fett would have popped up for no apparent reason.

I was overall lukewarm ( pun not intended...but will accept) to TLJ. I was disappointed in some things and now certain aspects turned out, but it still turned out multiple times better than the tripe that some of these loud " Rian Johnson and Kathy Kennedy ruined my life!" malcontents would have given us had they had been in charge. As far as I'm concerned they are in the same camp as the over the top yelling about Man of Steel.

Constructive criticism being listened to is one thing. Specifically catering to the fans is another. The later basically guarentees long term failure.

I enjoy about 3/4's of TLJ...nothing will ever redeem that utterly useless casino planet subplot...but I had fun with the rest. And you're absolutely right, most of the complaints are about how Luke should have been something that we never even saw from the original trilogy. Let's be honest here...RotJ Luke could barely defeat an old man who was half robot, yet he was supposed to have become some all-powerful dude in the following years who can rip apart the First Order while he eats his breakfast.

I think a lot of it comes down to people not understanding that the Skywalker story ended with RotJ, and this is now Rey's story where a few familiar faces make an appearance. Luke's story ended 30 years ago, but some of these people would tell you their childhood has been well & truly assaulted in a sexual manner. But hey, sure, "listen to the fans" lol

[stargazer01]

sure I agree that the fans can't all agree all the time, that's why I mentioned critics as in professional critics and the BO.

Something didn't quite work in Man of Steel and even less with BvS for audiences. It's why they didn't come back to the JL movie. My opinion is that those characters didn't fit the idea most of these critics and audiences have from these characters, so they didn't quite enjoy it like Snyder and WB wanted.

And to me BvS is a very gritty film. I'm sure grittier even than TDK and MOS. And Superman's behavior in BvS was more somber even than in MOS and SR, so compared to most DC movies, BvS is darker.



This is also why I put the new animated The Death of Superman movie as an example. The movie gets really hardcore with the violence, but the film as a whole never feels too somber because Superman himself isn't dark or brooding like Henry was in BvS. Tomasi and company did a great job at showing all the danger and sacrifice Superman and the League have to do, but it also knew how to show Superman and Clark as the beacon of hope we have come to love. He had doubts but he still acted like Superman and never doubted if he should save the world or not. That's the Superman most want to see. TDoS showed us not just told us who Clark/Superman is, so when he is fighting and dying we truly care.

[Clark_Kent]

sure I agree that the fans can't all agree all the time, that's why I mentioned critics as in professional critics and the BO.

Something didn't quite work in Man of Steel and even less with BvS for audiences. It's why they didn't come back to the JL movie. My opinion is that those characters didn't fit the idea most of these critics and audiences have from these characters, so they didn't quite enjoy it like Snyder and WB wanted.

And to me BvS is a very gritty film. I'm sure grittier even than TDK and MOS. And Superman's behavior in BvS was more somber even than in MOS and SR, so compared to most DC movies, BvS is darker.



This is also why I put the new animated The Death of Superman movie as an example. The movie gets really hardcore with the violence, but the film as a whole never feels too somber because Superman himself isn't dark or brooding like Henry was in BvS. Tomasi and company did a great job at showing all the danger and sacrifice Superman and the League have to do, but it also knew how to show Superman and Clark as the beacon of hope we have come to love. He had doubts but he still acted like Superman and never doubted if he should save the world or not. That's the Superman most want to see. TDoS showed us not just told us who Clark/Superman is, so when he is fighting and dying we truly care.

I don't think they should listen to critics, either lol Ultimately, I'm just not a fan of studios being reactionary to things...I look at it like this: when they hired Zack Snyder for MoS, they knew what they were getting. They had seen 300, Watchmen, Sucker Punch, and Gaurdians: Owls of Gahool. They knew what kind of filmmaker they were getting. Now, MoS may not have impressed critically (although it was at 57% on RT at time of release, so the majority of critics liked it), but financially it did well. It was the highest grossing super hero origin movie at the time.

So even though a lot of fans didn't like the more mature take on the character, it made some money and most critics liked it. So let's call MoS a win.

Now, films aren't made in a vacuum, and even though Snyder gets all the hate for BvS's tone, WB knew from the start what they were getting. They saw the script, they saw the storyboards. They were in the meetings. There was that report of WB execs giving the 3-hour film a standing ovation after they watched it. However, at the 11th hour and faced with an R-rated 3-hour film, they panicked and wanted to get more showings during the day. So Snyder is ordered to hack 30 mins of his movie, essentially turning a Superman sequel with Batman as guest star into a Batman movie with Superman as guest star. Included in that 30 minutes were Clark's reasons for not trusting Batman, Lois being a competent reporter, and giving actual weight to why Clark felt the way he felt in the movie (we have to remember, this is a Superman with only 18 months of experience with shouldering the weight of the world; the Superman in TDoS animated movie, has been Superman a long time).

The result: critics hate it, fans turn from it. BvS theatrical is a loss.

WB has another film coming in 5 months, Suicide Squad. As a reactionary measure to BvS, they take the film from Ayer & have a trailer studio cut the film to shreds, including omitting the original Joker/Harley subplot that presented them in their more traditional relationship; abusive. Suicide Squad scores even worse than BvS with critics, but definitely overperforms at the box office; what should have been considered a win, financially, is considered a loss critically.

Suicide Squad becomes a wash.

Meanwhile, Patty Jenkins has already shot Wonder Woman, with Snyder producing. Nobody really knows why the studio let this one be (I have my theories), but she is allowed to keep her movie as she wanted it. Wonder Woman releases to critical acclaim and box office success.

Wonder Woman is a win.

Now here comes Justice League...from the director of 300, Watchmen, Sucker Punch, Man of Steel, Batman v Superman...the studio KNEW what kind of director they had. They knew it. His films are always polarizing, always a tough sell to critics. But, here's the kicker: they started shooting Justice League about 2 weeks after BvS premiered in cinemas. They were in too deep to stop production and delay the film, but they had Zack Snyder and they knew what kind of director they had. And instead of rolling with it and regrouping after their own "phase one" was complete, they drop him like a bad habit as soon as principal photography was over and they were ready for reshoots. Keep in mind, this happened BEFORE Wonder Woman was released, and was a kneejerk reaction to the critical lashings of BvS and Suicide Squad.

Justice League releases on time, after another director "finishes" the film, and is a critical and financial flop.

They have been nothing but reactionary, and I hate it lol We'll never see what Suicide Squad was supposed to be because they panicked after critics tore up BvS (after BvS was torn up in the editing room at WB's behest), and we'll never see what Justice League should have been like because they panicked after BvS and SS. Maybe the original visions of SS and JL wouldn't have been any good, but we certainly just don't know because WB was too reactionary. But the sad truth is, they didn't have to be. If they didn't want BvS to be the darker middle chapter of an opening trilogy, they shouldn't have allowed Snyder to make it. If they didn't want SS to be serious, and have themes of abuse, they shouldn't have let Ayer make it.

If they didn't want Snyder's Justice League, they shouldn't have signed off on it and rushed it into production 2 weeks after BvS premieres.

They had a 5-film plan from Snyder, with room for spinoffs like Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman. If you're going to commit to a plan, then commit. Don't be reactionary and ditch the plan 2 films into it. The only reason to ditch things completely would be if the movies were losing money, and they weren't. MoS: just shy of $700 million. BvS: just shy of $900 million. SS: $700 million, WW: just shy of $900 million. They didn't bomb financially until JL, and that was after they displayed epic forms of reactionary behavior. They hired Whedon to "fix" JL and "give the fans what they want." We got Brunch, "Somethings definitely bleeding!", "a bigger fan of JUSTICE!", a goofy orgasm smile from Batman, and "CLAAAARRRK!"

Sorry for the rant. I'm just tired of being reactionary...you make a plan, you commit to the plan, you have some damn confidence in your plan. And if it doesn't work? No problem, reboot and start fresh. Audiences love a good reboot. But you don't change things on the 2nd film. Imagine if Marvel had ditched the plan after Incredible Hulk or Iron Man 2.

[Arsenal]

I honestly think WB made the right call for cutting down BvS, I just think they cut the wrong parts

[stargazer01]

I think the main reason JL failed was that general audiences lost interest after BvS. BvS opened huge worldwide but then it didn't have good legs. Sure you can say almost $900 is good $ but for the first film with the holy Trinity it doesn't seem like a true win. Wonder Woman had huge legs an costed much less, so WB realized they wanted more movies like that.

I also think that WB soon realized Snyder's vision was doing more damage to the characters IP than good, so they fired him. Yes they should have done it after MOS but I'm sure they thought adding Batman would solve all the problems.. but it didn't. It got worse. IMO, Snyder's vision wasn't the right way to go. He wasted the iconic Death of Superman in BvS. His vision was too controversial and divisive and audiences didn't go back for more. Even Henry Cavill said in November 2017 that the movies made $ but weren't truly successful. Poor guy, he had no power over anything. I have the strong feeling that Snyder was going for even more Injustice Superman in JL, so I feel relieved I didn't see that on the big screen. Maybe I'm wrong but based on BvS and his track record, I don't think he made the changes WB wanted, so he couldn't make a lighter film and WB fired him and hired Whedon.

[manofsteel1979]

I honestly think WB made the right call for cutting down BvS, I just think they cut the wrong parts

Honestly if you trim out big chunks of the nightmare sequence, the JL cameos and a few bits of Batman, you could have still ended up with a 2:30 minute movie that was more coherent and ended up with what was the original intention. An MOS sequel guest staring Batman and Wonder Woman that planted threads for the rest of the DCEU. Instead the studio turned it into a barely coherent Batman reboot set within the world of MOS guest staring Superman and WW and is a JL backdoor pilot.

I would love to see someone take the Ultimate edition of BvS and trim it down in a way that keeps all the things it fixed while getting the run time down.

[manofsteel1979]

I don't think they should listen to critics, either lol Ultimately, I'm just not a fan of studios being reactionary to things...I look at it like this: when they hired Zack Snyder for MoS, they knew what they were getting. They had seen 300, Watchmen, Sucker Punch, and Gaurdians: Owls of Gahool. They knew what kind of filmmaker they were getting. Now, MoS may not have impressed critically (although it was at 57% on RT at time of release, so the majority of critics liked it), but financially it did well. It was the highest grossing super hero origin movie at the time.

So even though a lot of fans didn't like the more mature take on the character, it made some money and most critics liked it. So let's call MoS a win.

Now, films aren't made in a vacuum, and even though Snyder gets all the hate for BvS's tone, WB knew from the start what they were getting. They saw the script, they saw the storyboards. They were in the meetings. There was that report of WB execs giving the 3-hour film a standing ovation after they watched it. However, at the 11th hour and faced with an R-rated 3-hour film, they panicked and wanted to get more showings during the day. So Snyder is ordered to hack 30 mins of his movie, essentially turning a Superman sequel with Batman as guest star into a Batman movie with Superman as guest star. Included in that 30 minutes were Clark's reasons for not trusting Batman, Lois being a competent reporter, and giving actual weight to why Clark felt the way he felt in the movie (we have to remember, this is a Superman with only 18 months of experience with shouldering the weight of the world; the Superman in TDoS animated movie, has been Superman a long time).

The result: critics hate it, fans turn from it. BvS theatrical is a loss.

WB has another film coming in 5 months, Suicide Squad. As a reactionary measure to BvS, they take the film from Ayer & have a trailer studio cut the film to shreds, including omitting the original Joker/Harley subplot that presented them in their more traditional relationship; abusive. Suicide Squad scores even worse than BvS with critics, but definitely overperforms at the box office; what should have been considered a win, financially, is considered a loss critically.

Suicide Squad becomes a wash.

Meanwhile, Patty Jenkins has already shot Wonder Woman, with Snyder producing. Nobody really knows why the studio let this one be (I have my theories), but she is allowed to keep her movie as she wanted it. Wonder Woman releases to critical acclaim and box office success.

Wonder Woman is a win.

Now here comes Justice League...from the director of 300, Watchmen, Sucker Punch, Man of Steel, Batman v Superman...the studio KNEW what kind of director they had. They knew it. His films are always polarizing, always a tough sell to critics. But, here's the kicker: they started shooting Justice League about 2 weeks after BvS premiered in cinemas. They were in too deep to stop production and delay the film, but they had Zack Snyder and they knew what kind of director they had. And instead of rolling with it and regrouping after their own "phase one" was complete, they drop him like a bad habit as soon as principal photography was over and they were ready for reshoots. Keep in mind, this happened BEFORE Wonder Woman was released, and was a kneejerk reaction to the critical lashings of BvS and Suicide Squad.

Justice League releases on time, after another director "finishes" the film, and is a critical and financial flop.

They have been nothing but reactionary, and I hate it lol We'll never see what Suicide Squad was supposed to be because they panicked after critics tore up BvS (after BvS was torn up in the editing room at WB's behest), and we'll never see what Justice League should have been like because they panicked after BvS and SS. Maybe the original visions of SS and JL wouldn't have been any good, but we certainly just don't know because WB was too reactionary. But the sad truth is, they didn't have to be. If they didn't want BvS to be the darker middle chapter of an opening trilogy, they shouldn't have allowed Snyder to make it. If they didn't want SS to be serious, and have themes of abuse, they shouldn't have let Ayer make it.

If they didn't want Snyder's Justice League, they shouldn't have signed off on it and rushed it into production 2 weeks after BvS premieres.

They had a 5-film plan from Snyder, with room for spinoffs like Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman. If you're going to commit to a plan, then commit. Don't be reactionary and ditch the plan 2 films into it. The only reason to ditch things completely would be if the movies were losing money, and they weren't. MoS: just shy of $700 million. BvS: just shy of $900 million. SS: $700 million, WW: just shy of $900 million. They didn't bomb financially until JL, and that was after they displayed epic forms of reactionary behavior. They hired Whedon to "fix" JL and "give the fans what they want." We got Brunch, "Somethings definitely bleeding!", "a bigger fan of JUSTICE!", a goofy orgasm smile from Batman, and "CLAAAARRRK!"

Sorry for the rant. I'm just tired of being reactionary...you make a plan, you commit to the plan, you have some damn confidence in your plan. And if it doesn't work? No problem, reboot and start fresh. Audiences love a good reboot. But you don't change things on the 2nd film. Imagine if Marvel had ditched the plan after Incredible Hulk or Iron Man 2.

Man I wish this forum had a like button. Spot on!

Simply put they should have just let Snyder finish JL his way or fire him. The final cut of JL did neither Snyder or Joss Whedon any favors. I'm sure if they had just let Whedon do it from the start he would have made a better film than the one he had to Frankenstein. I don't blame him at all for how that turned out. I blame the execs at Wease...er...Warner Brothers.

[Clark_Kent]

I think the main reason JL failed was that general audiences lost interest after BvS. BvS opened huge worldwide but then it didn't have good legs. Sure you can say almost $900 is good $ but for the first film with the holy Trinity it doesn't seem like a true win. Wonder Woman had huge legs an costed much less, so WB realized they wanted more movies like that.

I think it's important to note that Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are the Trinity to us...you, me, comics readers...but they aren't to the general audience. To the GA, they are just Superman (who's last film critics lavished over was Superman Returns), Batman (everyone loves Batman), and Wonder Woman (whom most remember from a bad 70's tv show and a star spangled diaper).

I might be undermining myself by slamming her tv show, but the general point is the same. They are not any kind of special trinity outside of comics readers, and putting that kind of pressure on a movie as to say it HAS to make 1 billion because they are in it is unfair, I think. I also teared up when Superman died in it, but everyone has different reactions. It's all subjective!

Man I wish this forum had a like button. Spot on!

Simply put they should have just let Snyder finish JL his way or fire him. The final cut of JL did neither Snyder or Joss Whedon any favors. I'm sure if they had just let Whedon do it from the start he would have made a better film than the one he had to Frankenstein. I don't blame him at all for how that turned out. I blame the execs at Wease...er...Warner Brothers.

Oh, absolutely...even as a fan of what Snyder gave us, Whedon would have made an awesome Justice League if he could have started from scratch. Even if it would have been derivative of his Avengers work, it still would have been better than the JL we ended up with.

Having said that, at least the theatrical JL has been fun to edit. I finished a 2hr8 minute cut a few months ago, and I'm re-tinkering with it right now.

[stargazer01]

I think it's important to note that Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are the Trinity to us...you, me, comics readers...but they aren't to the general audience. To the GA, they are just Superman (who's last film critics lavished over was Superman Returns), Batman (everyone loves Batman), and Wonder Woman (whom most remember from a bad 70's tv show and a star spangled diaper).

I might be undermining myself by slamming her tv show, but the general point is the same. They are not any kind of special trinity outside of comics readers, and putting that kind of pressure on a movie as to say it HAS to make 1 billion because they are in it is unfair, I think. I also teared up when Superman died in it, but everyone has different reactions. It's all subjective!


.

I have to disagree with this. BvS had a huge opening weekend which showed a lot of interest to see Batman battling Superman plus we'd see Wonder Woman on the big screen for the very first time ever. The hype was thru the roof and that's a fact, again opening weekend. But then the next weekend the story changed and BvS didn't have strong legs at all. If it did, it would have EASILY done 1 billion plus more, but many didn't like the movie.

Now look at Wonder Woman's performance. That movie costed much less, opened smaller, but had huge legs. Diana did better alone than with Superman and Batman. It obviously had great word of mouth, something BvS and MOS did not. Which proves Patty's vision for WW was more popular with general audiences as well as fans. I don't think WB were expecting all that.

Also, WW's tv show may not be the greatest (I don't think it was), but Lynda Carter was so charismatic and literally everybody loved her as WW. She became a household name in the 70s and 80s with reruns.