Arrogance vs Bloodlust?

[Captain Morgan]

So on rumbles, we always turn off PIS. This means that Wally West, being a reasonably smart guy who has demonstrated competency with his powers, will steal the speed of his opponents before their neurons can fire.

We also have Bloodlust on by default, which means Superman will ruthlessly murder Professor Xavier, turning him to red mist in a microsecond. Bloodlust also means we assume characters like the Sentry, who sometimes can barely get themselves out of the fetal position, are assumed to be having a "good day" and firing on all cylinders.

CIS, on the other hand, is on by default. Character induced stupidity means the Rhino, who is supposed to be very dumb in the narrative, probably won't think to thunder clap against smaller, faster opponents.

How does CIS apply to folks that are ruthless but also arrogant enough to do really dumb things in the narrative? Vegeta is a good example. His Saiyan pride has repeatedly gotten his ass kicked by letting people power up to their strongest and such. To the point that other characters say "Damn it Vegeta what is wrong with you." Goku has similar examples, albeit without as much blow back. I'm sure you could find examples in comics of villains doing similar stuff.

How do we treat guys like that? Old school Vegeta was usually out for blood already. So does Bloodlust override his arrogance, or us that considered CIS?

Edit: I'm not sure the above applies to current Vegeta, but I think DBZ Vegeta works as an example regardless.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

Not sure on Vegeta, but Jiren is definitive example of arrogance vs Bloodlust because he explicitly wants to crush people at their strongest. So, if it was a fight of someone like Thor vs Jiren, I'd see Thor being given ample time to charge a God blast. Pretty sure Jiren lolnopes it, but that's a decent example.

I think arrogance overides bloodlust to an extent, but not necessarily in many cases since bloodlust could be considered someone Going crazy. In fact, I always find the "bloodlust here to be abad term to describe what we're doing". Its more like we're just being the characters and picking what we think their best tactic is, whereas a Bloodlusted version of many would just zerg rush rampage on opponents instead of put forth complicated or insightful tactics.

[Farealmer]

The issue is Vegeta has also shown times where he just gets on with it. Killing Freiza's henchmen and the ginyu force being a prime example. So it's not like he has never, in the entire series, just got on with it.

[Captain Morgan]

The issue is Vegeta has also shown times where he just gets on with it. Killing Freiza's henchmen and the ginyu force being a prime example. So it's not like he has never, in the entire series, just got on with it.

That's fair. I guess the arrogance was limited to a the Android through Buu saga. He went from the clever underdog sneaking around trying to gain immortality to beat Freiza, who he recognized as more powerful than him, to being desperate to prove himself better than Kakarot. Dude had an arc for it. Though to be fair, most of the guys he killed quickly he didn't think had anything hidden or held back. Even early in the Namek arc he was telling that blue pretty boy to unleash his all.

But I think the example as a behavior matters more than whether it specifically applies to Vegeta. I'm more interested in the general rule for rumbles than Vegeta specifically.

[Farealmer]

That's fair. I guess the arrogance was limited to a the Android through Buu saga. He went from the clever underdog sneaking around trying to gain immortality to beat Freiza, who he recognized as more powerful than him, to being desperate to prove himself better than Kakarot. Dude had an arc for it. Though to be fair, most of the guys he killed quickly he didn't think had anything hidden or held back. Even early in the Namek arc he was telling that blue pretty boy to unleash his all.

But I think the example as a behavior matters more than whether it specifically applies to Vegeta. I'm more interested in the general rule for rumbles than Vegeta specifically.

Then I think the question should be whether whoever it is in question has ever just "got on with it" or not. Intelligence is a factor in CIS because it tends towards a universally consistent hindrance. Arrogance is often just a way to do PIS so the villains or heroes don't finish off the opponent while they have the advantage so the story can drag longer.

[Powerboy]

So on rumbles, we always turn off PIS. This means that Wally West, being a reasonably smart guy who has demonstrated competency with his powers, will steal the speed of his opponents before their neurons can fire.

We also have Bloodlust on by default, which means Superman will ruthlessly murder Professor Xavier, turning him to red mist in a microsecond. Bloodlust also means we assume characters like the Sentry, who sometimes can barely get themselves out of the fetal position, are assumed to be having a "good day" and firing on all cylinders.

CIS, on the other hand, is on by default. Character induced stupidity means the Rhino, who is supposed to be very dumb in the narrative, probably won't think to thunder clap against smaller, faster opponents.

How does CIS apply to folks that are ruthless but also arrogant enough to do really dumb things in the narrative? Vegeta is a good example. His Saiyan pride has repeatedly gotten his ass kicked by letting people power up to their strongest and such. To the point that other characters say "Damn it Vegeta what is wrong with you." Goku has similar examples, albeit without as much blow back. I'm sure you could find examples in comics of villains doing similar stuff.

How do we treat guys like that? Old school Vegeta was usually out for blood already. So does Bloodlust override his arrogance, or us that considered CIS?

Edit: I'm not sure the above applies to current Vegeta, but I think DBZ Vegeta works as an example regardless.

Before I read the rest of the thread, I'll offer my opinion.

I realize there are at least two possible arguments here (maybe more).

The first argument is that, with bloodlust on, even a character who consistently wastes time bragging ,won't do it in Rumbles. This is *in my opinion* the argument that it's not really Character A versus Character B at all. It's Character A's powers versus Character B's powers.

The other argument would be that, if the bragging or whatever it may be is consistent to the point he does it more often than he doesn't and it's beyond just P.I.S., beyond just an excuse to have him lose to inferior opponents, it's an inherent part of his personality, then it should be valid C.I.S.

While I badly want to go with Number 2, I think Number One is the choice that causes less problems. With Choice Number 2, I think it will turn into, "Well, the Flash so consistently forgets that he has super speed, up to and including the fact that he forgets even that some aspects of that speed are pure reflex, that it's effectively C.I.S." "Well, Superman so consistently ignores many of his powers that it's part of his character." Or, "Superman holds back. That's part of who he is."

I understand your point. One of the objections to our style of debate even when I've described it to people in real life, is, "Superman would never toss a living sentient being into the sun or kill them. The entire results of the fight are invalidated right there."

But they have not been around on the Net and have no idea what an endless "My favorite character wins because he's my favorite character" farce it turns into without rules like ours.

[Captain Morgan]

Before I read the rest of the thread, I'll offer my opinion.

I realize there are at least two possible arguments here (maybe more).

The first argument is that, with bloodlust on, even a character who consistently wastes time bragging ,won't do it in Rumbles. This is *in my opinion* the argument that it's not really Character A versus Character B at all. It's Character A's powers versus Character B's powers.

The other argument would be that, if the bragging or whatever it may be is consistent to the point he does it more often than he doesn't and it's beyond just P.I.S., beyond just an excuse to have him lose to inferior opponents, it's an inherent part of his personality, then it should be valid C.I.S.

While I badly want to go with Number 2, I think Number One is the choice that causes less problems. With Choice Number 2, I think it will turn into, "Well, the Flash so consistently forgets that he has super speed, up to and including the fact that he forgets even that some aspects of that speed are pure reflex, that it's effectively C.I.S." "Well, Superman so consistently ignores many of his powers that it's part of his character." Or, "Superman holds back. That's part of who he is."

I understand your point. One of the objections to our style of debate even when I've described it to people in real life, is, "Superman would never toss a living sentient being into the sun or kill them. The entire results of the fight are invalidated right there."

But they have not been around on the Net and have no idea what an endless "My favorite character wins because he's my favorite character" farce it turns into without rules like ours.

We have clear cut reasons why we don't say "Flash forgetting his speed is part of his character." The PIS/CIS distinction makes it very clear that unless the character is actually SUPPOSED TO BE INCOMPETENT we don't treat them as such.

[Nik Hasta]

It's an interesting question.

I mean, we are debating the characters rather than faceless powersets. Their rationality and standard tactics should be a factor.

[Powerboy]

We have clear cut reasons why we don't say "Flash forgetting his speed is part of his character." The PIS/CIS distinction makes it very clear that unless the character is actually SUPPOSED TO BE INCOMPETENT we don't treat them as such.

I get what you're saying now. It is an inherent part of Vegeta that he will waste time bragging. In other words, it's not a lack of intelligence. It's an inherent part of his nature. It's not equivalent to the Superman example because Bloodlust trumps Superman's core nature and makes him go for the kill or the win by any means necessary and not equivalent to the Flash forgetting he has super speed.

But being stupid like the Rhino isn't denying that Bloodlust comes first. He just won't fight smart. I'm not entirely sure where to place a character whose nature is to brag. If C.I.S. is to be relevant at all, maybe such a character in Rumbles would simply always allow his opponent to be at his most powerful. His C.I.S. effectively gives his opponent prep even if only to raise his shields, or whatever powers need to be activated.

[Pendaran]

It's an interesting question.

I mean, we are debating the characters rather than faceless powersets. Their rationality and standard tactics should be a factor.

And yet, while I get what people are trying to say, inevitably this will mostly be "the character I want to win now wins because the other guy has 'arrogance'". We are actually as much debating what the powers have shown themselves to be as anything. It's why CIS largely covers actual incompetence, in actual practice anything else has 100% been people wanting to dodge evidence standards for a particular given character, or say how a particular character loses.

We have clear cut reasons why we don't say "Flash forgetting his speed is part of his character." The PIS/CIS distinction makes it very clear that unless the character is actually SUPPOSED TO BE INCOMPETENT we don't treat them as such.

The standard of logic you're advocating doesn't have room for any that, is the problem, in order to be consistent with it. Who is to say them forgetting their powers so much isn't as part of their personality as actual incompetence would be? Deathstroke points out all the time how much speedsters miss and that kind of junk.

[Powerboy]

And yet, while I get what people are trying to say, inevitably this will mostly be "the character I want to win now wins because the other guy has 'arrogance'". We are actually as much debating what the powers have shown themselves to be as anything. It's why CIS largely covers actual incompetence, in actual practice anything else has 100% been people wanting to dodge evidence standards for a particular given character, or say how a particular character loses.

The standard of logic you're advocating doesn't have room for any that, is the problem, in order to be consistent with it. Who is to say them forgetting their powers so much isn't as part of their personality as actual incompetence would be? Deathstroke points out all the time how much speedsters miss and that kind of junk.

This is the problem I have with it in practice as opposed to theory. I get what Captain Morgan is saying. While "It can't trump bloodlust" may be an argument and I even made that argument myself, people will try to circumvent that when they want someone to win or lose. They'll just argue that it's not trumping bloodlust to be arrogant and let your opponent recover or strike first or whatever. Next thing will be someone doesn't like Superman. They won't just say, "I don't like Superman and I want him to lose." They'll say, "He tends to be overconfident and let's people strike first and hit him." But it will be selective when they do or do not invoke such arguments.

[Captain Morgan]

I'm not actually advocating that arrogance be considered a valid example of CIS, I'm just trying to clarify where we stand on it.

[Pendaran]

I would say that it's not really something to factor in in fights, even the example you're rolling for, Vegita, had someone noting "actually he's killed people out just fine" and etc. etc. etc.

[Blackid]

Wouldn't the most obvious example of this be Gladiator? Isn't his whole schtick that is Courage (ie, arrogance) is what boosts his powers? No one else has that as a power so the mental attitude that I can defeat you would be out the window. We've now shifted their minds in the khazan field to instant death mode. right?

[Pendaran]

Gladiator doesn't need to be arrogant to maintain his powers, just to have confidence in that they work. That gets disrupted when people manage to make it seem like that they don't (so when he's punching what he's not aware is an invisible Captain America's shield in front of an FF member and instead it just seems like someone he could previously wreck like nothing is now immune to him, when Cannonball mid getting wrecked managed something similar, when psychics convince him he's being blasted with weapons that can disrupt and overcome his abilities, what have you).

Gladiator has gone into fights knowing he's likely completely effed (against Tyrant for instance), and his powers hold up just fine, even as he loses. It's not a matter of always thinking he will win, he's not delusional, it's a matter of belief in himself and the functioning of his abilities.