Captain America #695 SPOILERS and Discussion

[phantom1592]

I did not like what i heard of Secret Empire, or what little I saw of it and avoided for the most part. So this was my jumping on point. Honestly, it's refereshing to let Steve be Steve as 'regular' Captain America. Not Steve -direct of of Shield, not Steve in Civil War who seems to have forgotten to try diplomacy, not Steve replaced by Hydra Cap. I know some gripe about the status quo or things being vanilla, but after having a multitude of flavors but no vanilla offered for what seems so long, vanilla is actually rare and exotic again to me

So I am highly biased, and this issue played to my biases while still setting up the scene that Steve is clearly dealing with the fall out of Stevil.

YES!!!

Between Civil War Steve... and then Dead Steve, and then Bucky Cap and Super soldier steve and old steve and hydra steve... It's been over TEN YEARS since we've had a classic solid Steve Rogers/Captain America especially in the classic suit. (I really REALLY hate the 'armor and helmet' look.)

[tliscord]

I'm of two minds with the Secret Empire thing.

Like, it's something that should be acknowledged as being a big deal and the aftermath needs to be focused on if Marvel really wants the ending or what happened to feel meaningful (this has always been a problem with their events).

But at the same time it's a lot of baggage to have to deal with in a first issue that's meant to be, more or less, celebrating the return of Steve Rogers as Captain America.

Or Secret Empire fades away with time ... like Cap w/super strength. SE was very convoluted, apt to spin out of Spencer’s control. That event after Secret Wars was almost too much for me to follow. Both were enormous in post effect, down the road stuff and with SW skipping ahead and minimal explanation, SE w/ Kobick-changing history was a struggle for me. So I’m choosing to dummy it down for myself .... this is Steve, the same guy from Waid’s run, Brubaker’s run all the way back to Englehart. Can’t do it any other way.

[KOSLOX]

Kobik created a centuries old magic user who the elder gods smiled upon?

Yeah, she's a cosmic cube. Why would you allow that she's able to significantly alter history, with pinpoint accuracy, and leave other people totally unaffected, but not allow that she could create a new madam hydra.

Elsa, was a pretty insignificant character in the end, and really only was an anchor for Steve.

[Michael Watkins]

Yeah, she's a cosmic cube. Why would you allow that she's able to significantly alter history, with pinpoint accuracy, and leave other people totally unaffected, but not allow that she could create a new madam hydra.

Elsa, was a pretty insignificant character in the end, and really only was an anchor for Steve.

it's weird that you'd describe her as insignificant. she was the reason Steve was Hydra. every time that he doubted himself, she was there to keep him on the path. she was also scheming with other characters in the story. if we hadn't seen her private discussions with Daniel Whitehall or mentally toying with Faustus, I'd agree with you. but her existence kind of leaves more questions than answers. why would a cosmic cube need to create her at all? why not just realign Steve "herself?" originally, I thought that she was Kobik in a different form; because she had so much agency and was more committed to Steve being Hydra Supreme than Steve (himself). as for this pinpoint accuracy that you refer to...Steve's dad being killed was a mistake. they didn't stop the Red Skull from co-opting Hydra either. the Wheel was completely altered; not even a hint of Wolfgang von Strucker's involvement.

I guess what I'm saying is that, whatever we read wasn't what was supposed to happen. I think the decision to kill Madame Hydra was made at the last minute; because they needed a sympathetic/childlike Kobik to undo what had been done.

[MajorHoy]

I guess I can see how this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. Maybe it might strike some as "old-fashioned" in a way, I don't know.

If any character should have an "old fashioned" feel, it's WWII hero Captain America. No matter how much he adjusts to life in the 21st century, he grew up and started as a hero back in the last century.

This felt so safe.

After the crap Steve went through with his previous two writers, "safe" can be a very comforting way to start off.

Now, a few complaints about this issue:
* I wish they had made it clearer early on that Cap's visit to Burlington, Nebraska was 10 years in the past, because at first I thought that was in the present until we got to the caption "TEN YEARS LATER." And considering Marvel has a book for Old Man Logan, not to mention the upcoming Old Man Hawkeye limited series (not to mention Remender's run with "Dimension Z"), I was beginning to think that we had a time-jump into the future or something.
* Also, after Waid & Samnee had the first page of their story reminding us that Steve got his powers from the Super Soldier experiment back in WWII and then later fell into the frozen waters where he was frozen for decades, why did we also have the silly Legacy Recap pages at the end of this issue that used about half of its three pages to basically TELL US THE SAME THING?

[lordozone]

Your comprehension seems to be non-existent. Based on your comments, I really think you didn't understand SE at all.



HE WASN'T HYDRA ALL ALONG. Jesus, it's not that hard to understand.



What Hydra Cap did during SE still happened. That's when the real Steve was out of action. Everything before SE - or before Pleasant Hill, we should say - was "our" Steve and history is as it's always been known.



Seems like "Cap Town" would be more pro-Cap than most places, right? And especially among those attending a specific event meant to celebrate Cap. Anyone who isn't a fan of Cap would've likely stayed home.



That's what you were waiting for? Are you insane?

And there is no "elephant in the room." Most people in the MU seem to understand that Cap was replaced by an evil impostor and the real Cap came back to kick the impostor's ass for all the world to see. While I'm sure there still some lingering distrust out there, the prevailing sentiment would be that Cap saved the day again.

Man, even if I'm almost never ok with you, I appreciate your opinions because you are not entitled and agressive, and you have real arguments that you defend gently. Jackolover can have strange opinions, but he is a real fan, and very passionate. No need to be that agressive.

[Prof. Warren]

Man, even if I'm almost never ok with you, I appreciate your opinions because you are not entitled and agressive, and you have real arguments that you defend gently. Jackolover can have strange opinions, but he is a real fan, and very passionate. No need to be that agressive.

Not aggressiveness so much as just exasperation. I mean, how many times can the same thing be explained?

That said, I probably should've phrased my thoughts more delicately.

[jackolover]

Your comprehension seems to be non-existent. Based on your comments, I really think you didn't understand SE at all.



HE WASN'T HYDRA ALL ALONG. Jesus, it's not that hard to understand.



What Hydra Cap did during SE still happened. That's when the real Steve was out of action. Everything before SE - or before Pleasant Hill, we should say - was "our" Steve and history is as it's always been known.



Seems like "Cap Town" would be more pro-Cap than most places, right? And especially among those attending a specific event meant to celebrate Cap. Anyone who isn't a fan of Cap would've likely stayed home.



That's what you were waiting for? Are you insane?

And there is no "elephant in the room." Most people in the MU seem to understand that Cap was replaced by an evil impostor and the real Cap came back to kick the impostor's ass for all the world to see. While I'm sure there still some lingering distrust out there, the prevailing sentiment would be that Cap saved the day again.

They were afraid the humans would tear all the mutants apart if they found out Wanda was able to eliminate all mutant powers and alter reality. Why would they be so lenient on Cap who just pulled apart the whole country and destroyed a city? Forgiveness only goes so far.

And I think if there were any Cap detractors in Cap Town, they sure as hell would have gate crashed this festival.

[jackolover]

She was a creation of Kobik.

And Hydra Cap didn't have his memories changed. It's easiest to think about it like a computer.

He was basically a new operating system installed on Steve's existing hardware and Hydra ideology was the bloatware built into this OS. Good Steve was essentially a rollback file which managed to escape being purged.

So everybody in the ANAD during Secret Empire thought this psycho who was pretending to be Cap, wasn’t the real Cap? At some point there had to be acceptance that Hydra Cap was the real Cap for everybody to go along with his education programs, and the racism. Hydra Cap defeated all the super heroes. Everyone of them ran away with their tails between their legs, because they were blindsided by the real Cap betraying them. If they thought Cap was an imposter, they would have killed him outright from the start. The heroes were defeated because Hydra Cap knew all their weaknesses, and how to counter them. Only the real Cap could do this.

[Prof. Warren]

They were afraid the humans would tear all the mutants apart if they found out Wanda was able to eliminate all mutant powers and alter reality. Why would they be so lenient on Cap who just pulled apart the whole country and destroyed a city? Forgiveness only goes so far.

One, I think we can agree that Scarlet Witch and Cap are held - unfairly or not - to different standards by the public.

Two, the fear of Scarlet Witch is about what her unpredictable power could do if she lost control of it or decided to use it in a reckless manner. Whereas everything harmful that Cap did - or could do - is not possible unless a lot of people choose to go along with it. The former is clearly more frightening than the latter.

And I think if there were any Cap detractors in Cap Town, they sure as hell would have gate crashed this festival.

If there were people in Cap Town who hated Cap so badly, they probably would've moved by now. Also, this is several months after SE as well so the fact that Steve himself was not responsible for SE would've had plenty of time to sink in and the amount of people who want to blame Steve for what happened is very, very low.

If someone showed up angry at Steve for SE, everybody around them would've shouted them down with a lesson on current events.

Also, Steve wasn't even supposed to be at this celebration. He showed up completely unannounced. So anyone who would've wanted to attack him personally wouldn't have planned to do so at an event he wasn't meant to appear at.

So everybody in the ANAD during Secret Empire thought this psycho who was pretending to be Cap, wasn’t the real Cap? At some point there had to be acceptance that Hydra Cap was the real Cap for everybody to go along with his education programs, and the racism. Hydra Cap defeated all the super heroes. Everyone of them ran away with their tails between their legs, because they were blindsided by the real Cap betraying them. If they thought Cap was an imposter, they would have killed him outright from the start. The heroes were defeated because Hydra Cap knew all their weaknesses, and how to counter them. Only the real Cap could do this.

Yes, during SE most people believed that HydraCap was the real deal. That's why he was able to do what he did. But when the real Cap showed up to defeat HydraCap, people learned that they had been fooled by an impostor and that the real Steve was responsible for defeating him and ending the Hydra reign. The End.

[David Walton]

Honestly, I'd prefer they deal with SE as little as humanly possible. I'd be fine if the guy defending Steve at the rally was the last mention ever made of it.

I think it just raises too many questions about which Steve is 'real,' especially with Marvel's insistence that Stevil is Steve Rogers and the way 'our' Cap was reconstructed from memory (which technically means he's not the same guy as before, but don't think about it too hard?). And the whole idea that Stevil has been a secret agent all along, but Cap's history plays out the same as before? Too much of a headache, and this from a guy who loves time paradoxes.

SE also upends the fifty-plus year tradition that Steve Rogers is defined by his inherent decency, not his circumstances. Time after time, the super-solider serum has driven others power-mad and insane, simply because they weren't Steve. But then SE comes along and says that he'd be a fascist if he'd had someone pushing him that direction. Even John Walker was able to concede where he'd been wrong, something Stevil never could.

[KOSLOX]

So everybody in the ANAD during Secret Empire thought this psycho who was pretending to be Cap, wasn’t the real Cap? At some point there had to be acceptance that Hydra Cap was the real Cap for everybody to go along with his education programs, and the racism. Hydra Cap defeated all the super heroes. Everyone of them ran away with their tails between their legs, because they were blindsided by the real Cap betraying them. If they thought Cap was an imposter, they would have killed him outright from the start. The heroes were defeated because Hydra Cap knew all their weaknesses, and how to counter them. Only the real Cap could do this.

Hydra Cap IS real Cap, just one that is programmed to be Hydra. There are two version of Captain America in the MU right now, that are totally identical other than one is a paragon of virtue and the other is a Nazi and they have shared memories.

They are cosmic cube created Clones, I really don't understand why this is so difficult.

[jackolover]

Hydra Cap IS real Cap, just one that is programmed to be Hydra. There are two version of Captain America in the MU right now, that are totally identical other than one is a paragon of virtue and the other is a Nazi and they have shared memories.

They are cosmic cube created Clones, I really don't understand why this is so difficult.

Well it is difficult, from an emotional standpoint at least. You can have Cap doing heroic things and nobody question his integrity, because it is unquestionable. Then someone like Nick Spencer does this weedling where we are lead to believe Steve is this fascist, and as he runs with this characterisation it grates on the senses of his fans. I think that’s the crime here.

[CyberCoyote]

The end of SE made it a little easier. The world world saw a good Steve fighting an evil one. It obviously doesn't get him 100% in the clear, but it makes it a lot easier.

Was this in the Cap book or something the Secret Empire series? Now that Good Steve (if that's a thing) is back I'd like to start collecting Cap again, but seeing the finale of how the whole Nazi-Steve thing ended would be nice.

Edited: Ouch, read a summary of Secret Empire and have no desire at all to read that story.