Captain America #695 SPOILERS and Discussion

[theoneandonly]

This issue was mostly okay but had some issues like avoiding the fallout of secret empire, cap endorsing a mighty looking after the weak philosophy that sounds like um you know what. perhaps he forgot his early days when he always stood up for what's right no matter how weak he was. Perhaps it would have made for a more impact full read if he was working undercover or as his own Hydra cap doppelganger to aid in dismantling secret empire hydra cells that may have escaped the authorities attention. As it is this issue seemed too much like a bland back to basics issue.

[L.R Johansson]

Wow, I don't think I've seen THIS Captain America grace a Marvel Comic since before Brubaker took over for him. Confident, carismatic without being overbearing, all around nice guy, the kind that truly belives that might does not make it right. A real Goody Two-Shoes. It all there, from the way he talks to how he's drawn. PERFECT. How I've missed the real Captain America (as much as I might have enjoyed Brubaker's run and a few other stories). Nice to have him around. I hope he stays on for a LOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG time.

Peace

I'm VERY glad to hear that you've finally got another book to enjoy from Marvel Nomads, my man! : D Hopefully, you, and other comments from long-time readers that I've seen, is a sign of Legacy working out the way it's intended - get back some of those long-time lapsed readers!

Are you looking forward to any of the other books btw? I think I'd suggest some of the one-shots for you - like POWER PACK! That one really did read like an old-school PP-issue - I was surprised that I liked it myself btw - because the writer was Devin Grayson, which honestly, I feel kind of the same way about as you do about Bendis...

Dunno' if you've read any Nightwing, but she wrote a story wherein he was... RAPED! *shudders*

[SignorMiracolo]

Well according to several articles I've read the hyrdra ruled world seen at the end of secret empire #10 now exists as it's own alternate world it even has it's own page on the marvel wiki http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Earth-TRN641.

It's unofficial though. That Wiki has not official/Marvel endorsement, it's just fans. Obviously, theoretically, there are many Cap Hydra-ruled realities, ones where the resistance get killed before they could enact their plans, or where Kobik didn't fragment and Cap Hydra got the cube as planned and so on.

[Za Waldo]

The art in this is pretty great. Captain America is probably a tad too skinny, but whatever, overall I really liked the art here. The story telling on the other hand feels so heavy handed at times it's a surprise Waid can type on the keyboard. I'm almost surprised that went Captain America told the little girl he was draping in the American flag that he just woke up that "I" was the bolded word and not "WOKE".

So ten years ago the Naz...I mean Rampart ran this country. Oh, I wonder who the president was ten years ago? And then they come back now.


Why made up this new lame ass organization for Captain America to fight? I mean, I know, white power supremacist militias are a huge problem now, so it's very topical. Especially all those suicide bombing white supremacist, they've been a problem on and off for like 16 years now.

Maybe you don't need two descriptors back to back about how Captain America moves.

"YOU EVER SEE HIM IN ACTION? NO? LEMME TELL YOU, ITS LIKE A BALLET. ("Comedy beat") WITH PUNCHING."

next page, cut to random person talking

"AND I REMEMBER THE WAY HE TUMBLED THROUGHT THE AIR LIKE AN OLYMPIC ACROBAT."

Pick one. You don't need two pages of two different people saying Captain America moves gracefully. They're both saying the same thing. It's like Waid came up with two different versions of the same thing and accidentally left them both in the script...and then the editor somehow missed it.

I don't get this Hydra Cap new magic Cap thing. Like, Hydra Cap was the real Cap. But then this comic seemingly starts out by telling you they're retconning that, which find, whatever, probably best to pretend that mess happened differently. But then during the part where everyone is saying why they're there, there's that black guy that starts talking about it. So is ten years ago Cap Hydra Cap? It'd make sense, given Hydra Cap was the real actual Cap and this Cap is a new Magic Idea Cap that was created by the little girl Cosmic Cube. The comic doesn't actually say this Cap remembers anything about being in that town either. Doesn't say he remembers Rampart, or any of the people ten years ago Cap met either. This does end with New Magic Cap Consept saying something Ten Years Ago Cap said, but then Hydra Cap was meant to be a deep undercover agent that did everything and acted just like Cap until he truely revealed his real self. Oh man, what a stupid terrible mess Secret Empire was. It messed up things so badly that in universe the Cap that did all the things in the stories you liked was revealed to have always been a Nazi and was killed, and to get something that looks like Captain America back a little girl that a Cosmic Cube had to make one based on an idea that Secret Empire says never existed. Wonder what the pitch for Secret Empire was: I want to Secret Wars Hail Hydra only...shitty and over two years, and I want to do the "Spider-Man was a clone the whole time" thing but a million times worse?

I really don't get Rampart. Are they meant to be a small handful of the towns local dummies? They staged their first stab at a takeover in the middle of nowhere, so I'm guessing they're from around there, can't see like ten or less people coming together from all across America to attack some tiny out of the way town in Nebraska. They tried attacking once, then ten years later in 2017 they came back stronger than every (get it) to take over again. Is this a joke? It feels like a joke. Why not have Captain America fight an actual threat for the big new inaugural issue for the return of Captain America? Instead of doing something cool we get Captain America fighting some bad joke villains in an attempt at some half-assed political point. Worst is before the leader hilariously blows himself up he hints that Rampart might be some kind of big long term thread. Great. Because after two years of HYDRA I'm sure what people want in an ongoing arc in which Captain American fights some lame ass Not-HYDRA group for half a year or longer. Seems like a great move, real smart.

Waid trying to write modest Cap might be the dumbest thing in the whole comic. Some girl tells Captain America he's a INSPIRATION, to which Captain America retorts "WHY? BECAUSE IM TALL AND I HAVE A SHIELD?" Then he starts pointing out how people just did stuff and didn't even need to be "inspired" by him. But–And this seems like a pretty big but–Waid seems to have forgot he set this whole story in Captain America, Nebraska during a fuckin' Captain America Festival. He also seems to have forgotten he spent three pages of this comic having people come up on stage talking about how Captain America has inspired them, and why they love him so much. So loved by these people is Captain America they they're still showing up to festival for him even after all the Hydra Cap stuff. So loved by that town is Captain America that even after Hydra Cap they're still called Captain America. You know Mark, if you're going to end your comic with some statement about how people don't need to be inspired, maybe don't set that story at a festival where everyone is their because they're inspired by Captain America.

Is it weird that this comic has a three page backup story about the Origin of Captain America, when the comic opens with a one page story about the Origin of Captain America? Is it weird the one page version does it better? Is it weird they both get his origin wrong because it's not about how a little girl named Kobik that's a living Cosmic Cube created a Captain America based on the concept of what he would have been if she hadn't messed with time to make the real Captain America a sleeper Nazi HYDRA agent?

[Prof. Warren]

Oh man, Steve just coming out of the ice? That makes it more complicated again.

Not saying my comprehension is always spot on, but I explained my reasons why the people of Cap Town are way too biased to accept Stevil ever existed.

And the ending of SE left it open because the Networks remembered Stevil and wanted him to take responsibility for his actions, together with good Steve. That tells me the history change wasn’t all that effective.

Your comprehension seems to be non-existent. Based on your comments, I really think you didn't understand SE at all.

I don’t see a problem with flashbacks being both Stevil and good Steve Rogers. Steve behaved heroically all the way from Tales of Suspense in the Silver Age right up to Secret Wars, whether he was Hydra or not.

HE WASN'T HYDRA ALL ALONG. Jesus, it's not that hard to understand.

And didn’t we just see the Networks lambasting Stevil in Secret Empire Omega after the whole thing was over? That tells me people’s minds haven’t been altered to erase Stevil. I still think good Steve popped into existence yesterday, but Stevils history still exists.

What Hydra Cap did during SE still happened. That's when the real Steve was out of action. Everything before SE - or before Pleasant Hill, we should say - was "our" Steve and history is as it's always been known.

Yeah, I’m with you. There should have been a spread of opinions on Cap in Cap Town.

Seems like "Cap Town" would be more pro-Cap than most places, right? And especially among those attending a specific event meant to celebrate Cap. Anyone who isn't a fan of Cap would've likely stayed home.

It sounded like illogical schmultz, this issue. That’s why I felt like the whole thing was walking on shells, because nobody was seeing the elephant in the room, and I was waiting for someone to come in with a shotgun to kill good Cap.

That's what you were waiting for? Are you insane?

And there is no "elephant in the room." Most people in the MU seem to understand that Cap was replaced by an evil impostor and the real Cap came back to kick the impostor's ass for all the world to see. While I'm sure there still some lingering distrust out there, the prevailing sentiment would be that Cap saved the day again.

[Zero Hunter]

I'm sorry but "Cap Town" was just corny as hell. To just totally gloss over Secret Empire is just lazy.

[KOSLOX]

People still think SE changed history? Cap was never really Hydra, that was all part of Kobik's tampering with his mind. That's why Zemo said he will choose to believe whatever he wants.

[Prof. Warren]

I'm sorry but "Cap Town" was just corny as hell. To just totally gloss over Secret Empire is just lazy.

It's not as though this is not the first and last issue of this run. There's plenty of time to delve into the repercussions of SE. It isn't "glossing over" anything to make a declarative statement out of the gate that classic Cap is back.

[SlimeBeherit]

People still think SE changed history? Cap was never really Hydra, that was all part of Kobik's tampering with his mind. That's why Zemo said he will choose to believe whatever he wants.

Did they explain where Elisa Sinclair came from then? Or why fixing the timeline didn't just fix the memories of Hydra Cap? I enjoyed Secret Empire quite a bit, but I still had many unanswered questions.

In any case, I was totally fine with the 1st issue of this Cap series to skip over anything SE related. A lot of people didn't really like that event so I understand why they wouldn't mention it right off the bat, but I do hope the subsequent issues do tackle it.

[KOSLOX]

Did they explain where Elisa Sinclair came from then? Or why fixing the timeline didn't just fix the memories of Hydra Cap? I enjoyed Secret Empire quite a bit, but I still had many unanswered questions.

In any case, I was totally fine with the 1st issue of this Cap series to skip over anything SE related. A lot of people didn't really like that event so I understand why they wouldn't mention it right off the bat, but I do hope the subsequent issues do tackle it.

She was a creation of Kobik.

And Hydra Cap didn't have his memories changed. It's easiest to think about it like a computer.

He was basically a new operating system installed on Steve's existing hardware and Hydra ideology was the bloatware built into this OS. Good Steve was essentially a rollback file which managed to escape being purged.

[Frontier]

I'm of two minds with the Secret Empire thing.

Like, it's something that should be acknowledged as being a big deal and the aftermath needs to be focused on if Marvel really wants the ending or what happened to feel meaningful (this has always been a problem with their events).

But at the same time it's a lot of baggage to have to deal with in a first issue that's meant to be, more or less, celebrating the return of Steve Rogers as Captain America.

[SlimeBeherit]

She was a creation of Kobik.

And Hydra Cap didn't have his memories changed. It's easiest to think about it like a computer.

He was basically a new operating system installed on Steve's existing hardware and Hydra ideology was the bloatware built into this OS. Good Steve was essentially a rollback file which managed to escape being purged.

Oh ok, thanks for the clarifications.

[KOSLOX]

Oh ok, thanks for the clarifications.

A lot of people were confused by this, but just remember we've already seen Kobik alter people fundamentally before. This is what she did to every single prisoner at Pleasant Hill, some of whom didn't want to revert to normal.

This is why the bad guys were so accepting of Stevil. They'd already had what happened to him, done to them.

[Michael Watkins]

She was a creation of Kobik.

And Hydra Cap didn't have his memories changed. It's easiest to think about it like a computer.

He was basically a new operating system installed on Steve's existing hardware and Hydra ideology was the bloatware built into this OS. Good Steve was essentially a rollback file which managed to escape being purged.

Kobik created a centuries old magic user who the elder gods smiled upon?

[Den]

I did not like what i heard of Secret Empire, or what little I saw of it and avoided for the most part. So this was my jumping on point. Honestly, it's refereshing to let Steve be Steve as 'regular' Captain America. Not Steve -direct of of Shield, not Steve in Civil War who seems to have forgotten to try diplomacy, not Steve replaced by Hydra Cap. I know some gripe about the status quo or things being vanilla, but after having a multitude of flavors but no vanilla offered for what seems so long, vanilla is actually rare and exotic again to me

So I am highly biased, and this issue played to my biases while still setting up the scene that Steve is clearly dealing with the fall out of Stevil.