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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Making ultimatums about untold stories is always silly. Until a story is told we can't judge how well it was executed. I understand the impulse to state how cancer shouldn't be treated lightly, but we have seen no indication that it will be. Part of the reality of cancer is that some people refuse treatment, part of the reality is that some people change their outlook on life based upon their diagnosis, part of the reality is that it doesn't kill everyone. Let's wait and see what happens.

    Sure we can speculate, I believe Jane will die and end up in Valhalla, but speculation is not an ultimatum. As soon as we start saying "if they do this I will be angry" we are literally loosing the plot. Storytelling is about making things that are not real seem real to the audience, and we can only judge how well that is achieved when we actually hear the story.

    One sure way to spoil our enjoyment of a story is to prejudge what the storyteller is or isn't allowed to say.
    I am normally all for taking a 'wait and see' approach, but there ARE limits to that, they may not be the same limits for every person, but they are limits nonetheless, and this, for me, would be one of them. And I think it's one that a lot of people won't really understand unless they have seen someone in that position, (I know my position on the magic cure has shifted a bit because I did watch someone go through that in the middle of the story. They got diagnosed, when into hospice and then died, all while the story was being told, so it ended up taking on a different meaning for me than it did starting out) or are in it themselves, and if you haven't, you are just going to have to accept their position.

    And yeah, people survive cancer. But not all cancer is created equal. I have 'survived' cancer, but I had a very minor form of it, which was extremely unlikely to be life threatening, and was so easily treated it was trivial. It is absolutely not comparable to the stage 4 metastatic cancer which Jane has, and it would be offensive to suggest otherwise. The type of cancer Jane has, has a FOUR PERCENT 5 year survival rate, even with aggressive treatment. Yeah, she may be among that lucky 4 percent, but given how she has been neglecting her treatment, that would be extremely unlikely without a magical cure, and, as mentioned, if they went that route, I would find it both to be a cheap out from a storytelling perspective, and offensive.
    Last edited by Raye; 11-10-2017 at 03:00 AM.

  2. #17
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    I have heard people say "I wouldn't usually like a story like this, BUT" so many times in my long life. I have also changed my mind about things based upon stories, and seen others have their beliefs or preconceptions changed by a well told story. Ultimatums are the complete opposite of having the open mind necessary for the enjoyment of stories. An attitude sadly all too common amongst comic book readers.

    A story about cancer may be on the extreme end of this notion. But stories do not have limits. This is surely the point of stories about gods weilding supernatural hammers and literally visiting the realm of the dead?

    Take the classic Captain Marvel story. When he died he didn't just fade away, his story continued with a confrontation with the self-appointed figure of Death that is Thanos.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 11-10-2017 at 03:11 AM.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    If you're talking about The Death of Captain Marvel, his confrontation with Thanos happens when he falls into a coma; after that he walks off with Thanos and Death, and then Mentor says "he's gone" and it fades to black.

  4. #19
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    If you're talking about The Death of Captain Marvel, his confrontation with Thanos happens when he falls into a coma; after that he walks off with Thanos and Death, and then Mentor says "he's gone" and it fades to black.
    So literal. Thanos acts as a psychopomp, just as his namesake Thanatos did in Greek religion. This section of his story is ABOUT death not just a literal representation of death. Captain Marvel is being guided to the afterlife.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    So accurate.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I have heard people say "I wouldn't usually like a story like this, BUT" so many times in my long life. I have also changed my mind about things based upon stories, and seen others have their beliefs or preconceptions changed by a well told story. Ultimatums are the complete opposite of having the open mind necessary for the enjoyment of stories. An attitude sadly all too common amongst comic book readers.

    A story about cancer may be on the extreme end of this notion. But stories do not have limits. This is surely the point of stories about gods weilding supernatural hammers and literally visiting the realm of the dead?

    Take the classic Captain Marvel story. When he died he didn't just fade away, his story continued with a confrontation with the self-appointed figure of Death that is Thanos.
    Stories may not have limits, Aaron is of course free to do whatever he wants. But readers do have limits, they have every right to express them, and they are not wrong for having limits, particularly when dealing with something like this.

    Yeah, I get frustrated with extremely closed minded fans who will seemingly only accept a writer doing a story exactly the way they want, down to the last detail. I do think a general open mindedness about stories is healthy. But that doesn't mean we have to be open to absolutely everything. And hell, even those readers who seemingly want a telepathic writer writing stories just for them are completely within their rights to want that, even if i personally find that unreasonable.

  7. #22
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    But don't you see? An ultimatum is one step further than what you are advocating. It is saying that the writer can't do something. It is a passive aggressive stance. "If they do this thing they haven't done yet they are wrong!"

    It isn't even setting a personal hard limit and then applying it to those responsible. It is more personal. A projection. The most common time it happens is when a reader senses that the story is going in a direction they don't personally like, and they point to an arbitrary point in the projected story and say "This is the point at which I will be out". That isn't the same thing as reading to a point in the story and deciding the story is not for us, or deciding it isn't something we want to read at the moment. It is a very dysfunctional way to respond to a story.

    The functional way to respond if a story is drifting in a direction one is not comfortable with is to either stop reading it at that point, or to wait until one is in a better frame of mind. Possibly one could rely on a trusted review of the story either as one goes along, or after the story has been completed. It is ok to express a distaste for the direction one thinks it is going, but always with the provisio that it hasn't gone there yet, and the distaste is personal not universal.

  8. #23
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    So accurate.
    Really don't know what you are trying to say. If you read The Death of Captain Marvel there are two levels to his actual death. On a materialistic level he is slipping into a coma and dying, on a metaphysical level he is being guided towards death by Thanos, who allows him to transition from "so unfair" to "this is not the end".

    The reason I bring it up is because nobody has actually died of cancer like that. This isn't an actual reflection of death from cancer, this is a story about the process of death. All throughout the story it focuses on acceptance and denial. It contains a truth about dying of an incurable disease, but it isn't "Just like when my relative died" or even trying to be. Therefore we shouldn't hold stories to that standard, and shouldn't prejudge them this way.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    But don't you see? An ultimatum is one step further than what you are advocating. It is saying that the writer can't do something. It is a passive aggressive stance. "If they do this thing they haven't done yet they are wrong!"

    It isn't even setting a personal hard limit and then applying it to those responsible. It is more personal. A projection. The most common time it happens is when a reader senses that the story is going in a direction they don't personally like, and they point to an arbitrary point in the projected story and say "This is the point at which I will be out". That isn't the same thing as reading to a point in the story and deciding the story is not for us, or deciding it isn't something we want to read at the moment. It is a very dysfunctional way to respond to a story.

    The functional way to respond if a story is drifting in a direction one is not comfortable with is to either stop reading it at that point, or to wait until one is in a better frame of mind. Possibly one could rely on a trusted review of the story either as one goes along, or after the story has been completed. It is ok to express a distaste for the direction one thinks it is going, but always with the provisio that it hasn't gone there yet, and the distaste is personal not universal.
    No, I just don't agree. No one here is saying Aaron can't do this, just that they would be offended if he did. Maybe I should have phrased it as 'I have a hard time imagining any scenario that this could be written in a way that is not offensive' leaving open the possibility Aaron could find some way to do it. But, really, I doubt he could. There just are certain ideas for some readers (and they will differ from reader to reader) where no amount of context or presentation in the story would make it work for them. And I think it is fine for them to say that, I think it's fine for them to say they will drop the book if that thing happens. I may not agree in every instance, I'm sure I have argued with people about stuff like this before here on the forums, since it will differ for every reader, but no one should tell another reader how they should feel about a story beat, even a hypothetical one, especially if those feelings are coming from some place deeply personal.
    Last edited by Raye; 11-10-2017 at 04:40 AM.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Really don't know what you are trying to say.
    You said "When he died he didn't just fade away, his story continued with a confrontation with the self-appointed figure of Death that is Thanos." Which is factually wrong, because Marvel didn't die and then confront Thanos after his death as you said, he slid into a coma, THEN Thanos shows up and they fight; it's made very clear that Mar-Vell is still alive at that point, in fact that rather is the point of their confrontation. You can actually read this confrontation with Thanos as "real", though occurring on the metaphysical plane, or simply as being all in Mar-Vell's dying brain, at least in the context of this story - later on of course Marvel goes all-in for the afterlife and it's no longer ambiguous. And yes, Thanos does act as a psychopomp in this story, no argument there; but the way you said it, with your capitalisation of the "D" of death ("figure of Death that is Thanos") makes it sound like you are referring to Thanos as literally embodying death in this story which he doesn't.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nosocialize View Post
    Wasn't there a cover of Jane Foster Thor dying? Must be coming right?
    isn't it possible that Jane dies but her as Mighty Thor will live?

  12. #27
    Amazing Member genji's Avatar
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    Some old fans and New fans Getting Mad Now Jason Aaron and Marvel become worse Killing Dreams and Hope of all fans, They destroy Ultimate Mjolnir plus you let original Thor his real hammer go Jane and now Jane gona die and original become true Thor again ! look like Jason Aaron make plan more kills Classic character.

    What was even the point of bringing Ultimate Mjolnir to 616?

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Love Harrah, but what happened to Dauterman being the artist of this series, again? It's just weird that he suddenly stopped drawing full issues.

  14. #29
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genji View Post
    Some old fans and New fans Getting Mad Now Jason Aaron and Marvel become worse Killing Dreams and Hope of all fans, They destroy Ultimate Mjolnir plus you let original Thor his real hammer go Jane and now Jane gona die and original become true Thor again ! look like Jason Aaron make plan more kills Classic character.

    What was even the point of bringing Ultimate Mjolnir to 616?
    Yea seriously, what was even the point of that plot point? Aaron teased it twice as if Thor was going to get Ultimate Mjolnir only to give us that stupid War Thor plot point before destroying the hammer entirely. What did any of it add at the end of the day other than a massive tease?

  15. #30
    Amazing Member genji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Yea seriously, what was even the point of that plot point? Aaron teased it twice as if Thor was going to get Ultimate Mjolnir only to give us that stupid War Thor plot point before destroying the hammer entirely. What did any of it add at the end of the day other than a massive tease?
    One thing we learn Jason Aaron and Marvel make biggest mistakes in life They Disrespect Dead Ultimate Thor and destroy his Ultimate Mjolnir and Original Mighty Thor ruin his Life with no Hammer soon he will Thor again but next story his love ones gonna die.

    Will Marvel fault why others fans go in Dc comics reason they Lack of respect.
    Last edited by genji; 11-16-2017 at 02:23 AM.

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