Batman #35 preview

[Badou]

Well you can judge comics based on your personal interpretation all you want, but Catwoman's actual comic history tells a much different story.

And there you go again implying that Talia was "trained from birth to do nothing but fight and kill"...that simply isn't true. She's a princess that was taught how to be a leader, fighting just happens to fall within that. I mean can you even cite one example of Talia besting a highly skilled opponent in single combat? She suffers from an incredible amount of arrogance and seemingly spends her days scheming in luxury. Even then it was a close fight, so I don't understand the complaining at all.

She said in the issue that she learned the sword and to fight before learning to walk. Sword fighting isn't some natural skill that you just know, but a very difficult skill you learn. You could view Catwoman as a master class hand to hand fighter capable of beating anyone, even though I don't, but in the issue she also said she had barely any experience with a sword. It is like the Mcgregor and Mayweather fight. Mcgregor is a good fighter, but he had no shot at fighting someone in boxing that had been training in the sport since they could walk.

And my point about "feats" in comics are pointless because everyone can beat everyone if the writer wants it. It wasn't believable to me that Catwoman would randomly be a good swordsman. A better writer would have used Catwoman's other skills to make up for her lack of skill with a sword to have her win that way, but then that would ruin the whole "honorable duel" that King wanted to write even if it didn't make any sense.

You are obviously a big Catwoman fan so you aren't going to budge from your position, but I don't really favor Catwoman or Talia and looking at it from the outside without being invested in one or the other the fight felt off.

[Godlike13]

I agree that beating her in sword fight is a little much, especially when she's saying how she never used a sword before, but as someone else kind of pointed out she didn't really beat Talia in a sword fight. She lost the sword fight but then turned it into a brawl.

[K Nikk]

. A better writer would have used Catwoman's other skills to make up for her lack of skill with a sword to have her win that way, but then that would ruin the whole "honorable duel" that King wanted to write even if it didn't make any sense.

I thought that's what King did? Selina was pretty much beat in the "sword fight" but then used the element of surprise by grabbing the blade with her hand to kick her off a wall, and when Talia was recovering from that, Selina jumps down and stabs her in the back. Sticking a sword into someone lying face first on the ground doesn't seem to require a lot of finesse.

[cheswick]

I thought that's what King did? Selina was pretty much beat in the "sword fight" but then used the element of surprise by grabbing the blade with her hand to kick her off a wall, and when Talia was recovering from that, Selina jumps down and stabs her in the back. Sticking a sword into someone lying face first on the ground doesn't seem to require a lot of finesse.

You're right. She essentially used her hand-to-hand skills to win.
Also, I don't know where it was established that Talia is such a skilled swordfighter. In this very issue she is recounting how many times she died sword-fighting. If she's so good, then why would she die so often. It's kind of like claiming someone's a good driver because they have crashed a lot.

[Barbatos666]

She was a toddler fighting a grown man with centuries of experience. Come on now LOL.

I have no strong feelings on the the versus aspect on principle. I actually agree with the poster who said Selina has had better feats and more feats so yeah history does lend itself in Selina's favor.

The problem is Tom friggin King and his Godawful writing. He's the one inventing fake history which he doesn't bother showing. He wrote Talia sword fighting against Ra's as a toddler then he sets up Selina to be no match for her by her own admission, has Selina even be fatigued and injured but she still wins because LOVE. Just like a he had a half dead Batman defeat Bane with one shot because he's Batman or defeating Deathstroke and Deadshot together or Batman popping his spine back in to place because he's Batman.

If King doesn't want people to pay attention to the fights then he shouldn't seek attention either. Selina>Talia by feats but King made up Talia to be a bigger deal than she is and then throws her under the bus for no reason that I can find beyond pure wank. Someone like Dixon could have written this fight with the exact same outcome and I bet no one would have complained. Honestly King comes across as a troll to me now, his run practically feeds on clickbait and controversy. He just needs to wrap his bags and GTFO now.

[Godlike13]

Just because Talia might not be this super elite fighter doesn't mean she isn't extremly dangerous. Morrison showed us how dangerous she can be. At the same time though she was the antagonist here, and protagonists overcoming antagonist is what comics are all about.

[Barbatos666]

Yes Morrison showed Talia was dangerous, King didn't and that's the difference. One writer actually delivers proper build up and executes his concepts properly.
The other just tells you stuff and flunks at basic execution.

King's run violates basic story telling principles, he cant be bothered to show you anything and resorts to telling. His execution almost always fails here. If this was written by some other writer then people would've rightfully called the writer out on it bur with King people are deluding themselves because he's the writer of "Vision and Omega Men".

[Godlike13]

While your not wrong, i think Morrison's run was recent enough that readers are still aware of how dangerous Talia is. Still even in the issue prior we saw the power of her means, with her throwing an army at them, and her ruthlessness when she stabbed Batman. Which is really what makes Talia so dangerous, not her fighting prowess. Even though she did win the sword fight. Now King's obviously trying to put some extra shine on Catwoman here. Which means Catwoman ultimately got the better of Talia, but its not like Catwoman is not suppose to be an impressive women in her own right, and its not like Talia wasn't or is no longer dangerous because Catwoman got the better of her in a brawl. What truly makes Talia dangerous we did see. Though admittedly to a point. Still with what we saw Talia has at her disposal here, i still think if she really wanted Catwoman dead she could very probably make that happen and then some.

[dietrich]

You're right. She essentially used her hand-to-hand skills to win.
Also, I don't know where it was established that Talia is such a skilled swordfighter. In this very issue she is recounting how many times she died sword-fighting. If she's so good, then why would she die so often. It's kind of like claiming someone's a good driver because they have crashed a lot.

You wore diapers as a child Do you still wear them? At some point your body learnt bowel control but before you got to that point you were crappy.
People learn as they grow we get better with practise. At some point she learnt enough to stop dying.
In RSOB and Robin Rises she is shown to be a master swordsman.
In Batman Inc too.
If she can take on armies in RSOB with that just sword she is a master of mate.


Edit
Just realised so King lifted parts of Damian's childhood and grafted it on to Talia but Extreme.

[Badou]

I thought that's what King did? Selina was pretty much beat in the "sword fight" but then used the element of surprise by grabbing the blade with her hand to kick her off a wall, and when Talia was recovering from that, Selina jumps down and stabs her in the back. Sticking a sword into someone lying face first on the ground doesn't seem to require a lot of finesse.

I didn't really get that feeling given Catwoman held her own for a while swordfighting. She should have beaten her without the use of the sword at all, imo, if she was going to win. It would have worked better I think if she had brought out her whip maybe, but I guess without the sword King couldn't have his line at the end with Damian.

[dietrich]

She was a toddler fighting a grown man with centuries of experience. Come on now LOL.

I have no strong feelings on the the versus aspect on principle. I actually agree with the poster who said Selina has had better feats and more feats so yeah history does lend itself in Selina's favor.

The problem is Tom friggin King and his Godawful writing. He's the one inventing fake history which he doesn't bother showing. He wrote Talia sword fighting against Ra's as a toddler then he sets up Selina to be no match for her by her own admission, has Selina even be fatigued and injured but she still wins because LOVE. Just like a he had a half dead Batman defeat Bane with one shot because he's Batman or defeating Deathstroke and Deadshot together or Batman popping his spine back in to place because he's Batman.

If King doesn't want people to pay attention to the fights then he shouldn't seek attention either. Selina>Talia by feats but King made up Talia to be a bigger deal than she is and then throws her under the bus for no reason that I can find beyond pure wank. Someone like Dixon could have written this fight with the exact same outcome and I bet no one would have complained. Honestly King comes across as a troll to me now, his run practically feeds on clickbait and controversy. He just needs to wrap his bags and GTFO now.

He IS a troll with a sense of humour. A side of him that I like to be honest but he lacks respect for characters. Jason/Ace too far
The clickbait and controversy: he has sales targets man

Were you really expecting Selina to lose though? Come on there's only one reason why Talia was dragged into this. To be humiliated. Going by what certain fans were hoping for she got off lightly. He could have done much worse to the character but he didn't.

In fact King has reignited my interest in Talia by reminding what an interesting and fun character she can be. Now really looking forward to her upcoming spot in Supersons.

[cheswick]

You wore diapers as a child Do you still wear them? At some point your body learnt bowel control but before you got to that point you were crappy.
People learn as they grow we get better with practise. At some point she learnt enough to stop dying.
In RSOB and Robin Rises she is shown to be a master swordsman.
In Batman Inc too.
If she can take on armies in RSOB with that just sword she is a master of mate.


Edit
Just realised so King lifted parts of Damian's childhood and grafted it on to Talia but Extreme.

You took the latter part of my post way too seriously. That said, it seemed (to me) that her story might have been meant to illustrate how capable she is, and how she became so.

Or maybe it was, in fact, just a story, used as a tactic against Selena; an attempt to distract her, intimidate her, garner sympathy, or all of the above.

[K Nikk]

Were you really expecting Selina to lose though? Come on there's only one reason why Talia was dragged into this. To be humiliated. Going by what certain fans were hoping for she got off lightly. He could have done much worse to the character but he didn't.

In fact King has reignited my interest in Talia by reminding what an interesting and fun character she can be. Now really looking forward to her upcoming spot in Supersons.

I didn't think Talia came out of this humiliated, since I think it was clear she wasn't going all out on Selina - it was really aggressive sparring/measuring up/testing and not a battle to the death. Talia was holding back and that gave Selina a window of opportunity and she took it. A character can lose a fight without being humiliated because of it, IMO. The final shot with Batman and Talia sitting next to each other, neither threatened by the other, and the "I like her" suggests there wasn't any real animosity in this.

I came out of this more interested in Talia too. She seems portrayed like a proud, focussed character who knows her own (considerable) worth, and not a jealous ex or psychopathic cult leader, or "doing this all to elevate someone else" character. I was interested in the hints of Talia seeing something worthy in Selina to be trained and what that might lead to in the future between the two of them. I thought it also laid positive seeds for Batman and Talia to find some stable footing going forward (putting romance aside). They are going to be tied together by Damian if nothing else and having both characters being able to respect each other and at least tolerate the people in their lives is important.

Honestly the more I think about it, the more I appreciate this was going to be a minefield to navigate. And I personally think the outcome is better than could have been expected. I can see all these characters working together in the future now. I don't think this version of Talia will be sniping Selina to Damian behind her back like movies sometimes make an ex-wife set their kids against the new wife. I think Selina and Talia comparing the different ways they view Batman/Bruce was useful to understanding both characters and for putting it to rest. For me it removed Talia's slight obsession feeling, while leaving her focussed, proud and intimidating. I also see her now as someone who can be a mentor for some reason because it REALLY felt like she was testing/training/measuring up Selina and I thought that was.... interesting. I will have to read again to see if that feeling would hold up. Will she be/has she been training Holly?

[Nick Miller]

Lol, a toddler can’t pickup a sword.

This is obviously Talia using hyperbolic language to throw off Selina, to scare her, to do what animals in fights always do, appear big and tough. What’s that desert lizard that has that neck beard that it puffs up before fights? Yeah that.

And Do readers believe now Ras killed her multiple times as a 2 year old and threw her into the pit? Come on.....

[Nick Miller]

I disagree with basically everything in your post, save for Mr Miracle being a very good read.

I love King's run and I don't care about any ship.

and not having inner thoughts is such a relief after Snyder's run when you could almost not see the drawings because of the characters monologues.

"Sand. There is plenty of sand in the desert. Never in my life had I imagined I would see so much sand. And yet, even though I'm amazed by all this sand, I'm afraid. Would the woman I love still accept to marry me if she knew how much I'm afraid of love? Don't look into your heart, Bruce. Forget the little kid inside you who wants to scream. Be strong. Not like when you were so afraid of the joker. Because you're batman. And batman isn't afraid of anything. But bruce the little boy is very much scared. And yet, I have known Selina for such a long time. I can't believe I'm doing this right now. But I have no time to question myself. Alfred, who is very much like a father to me, and who loves me like a son, is probably happy. But can the batman really be happy? Was i foolish to believe in love? and Gotham... Gotham is the only lady that really knows me. Gotham knows all fiber of my being. Gotham loves me, but not as much as I love her. With all her streets and alleys... I remember when my great great great uncle died... he was friend with someone. and that someone very much could be Selina's father. A father. Sometimes, I forget that I am one myself. and yet, everyone needs a father. Even Gotham. Because Gotham is life. Gotham is batman. And Batman is gotham. But Batman is also bruce wayne. So Bruce Wayne really is Gotham. That means Selina Kyle has to be Gotham too. If I wasn't so afraid of sand...".

Haha.

That’s not close to Snyder’s narration though. Good try