Page 11 of 55 FirstFirst ... 78910111213141521 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 165 of 811
  1. #151
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,440

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInvisibleMan View Post
    and make a false accusation to become a pariah, to get death threats, to be thrown under a microscope

    yeah, women are out there trumping up accusations lining up for that treatment
    Again this presumes that false accusations never happen, which they do.

  2. #152
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Northeast US
    Posts
    12,806

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Again this presumes that false accusations never happen, which they do.
    and the only time I see this line of thinking is from mediocre ass men who want to make the situation all about them

  3. #153
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,440

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInvisibleMan View Post
    and the only time I see this line of thinking is from mediocre ass men who want to make the situation all about them
    Or you are setting up a strawman. The reality is there is a middle ground between not calling victims liars and assuming guilt because you want to be sensitive to the victim. It's not an all or nothing scenario.

    And again unless you are going to come out and say false accusation don't happen (which would demonstrably wrong) like you tried to imply in your previous post, then there is a middle ground that should be taken between dismissing the victim and assuming guilt.

  4. #154
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,965

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInvisibleMan View Post
    and the only time I see this line of thinking is from mediocre ass men who want to make the situation all about them
    Okay, you're right. False accusations never happen. Far be it from me to be a Mediocre Ass Man.

    It feels good to see people punished for wrongdoing. Only slightly moreso if they happen to actually be guilty.

  5. #155
    Astonishing Member AJBopp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    The prevalence of sexual assault and harassment, however, doesn't mean that everyone who's accused of it is guilty of it. It's just as easy to make a false accusation as a true one.
    Not so easy, though, to make a credible accusation, and if it's not credible it's not going to go very far. Personally, I think that it's been so incredibly difficult to make a true accusation (and continues to be) that I find it difficult to be very patient with the argument about how easy it is to make a false one.
    Why yes, I AM a Mark Goodson/Bill Toddman production.

  6. #156
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,965

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    Not so easy, though, to make a credible accusation, and if it's not credible it's not going to go very far. Personally, I think that it's been so incredibly difficult to make a true accusation (and continues to be) that I find it difficult to be very patient with the argument about how easy it is to make a false one.
    I don't see very much attention being paid to the question of credibility. I just see the accusation being reported and the public going "there's another one."

    Celebrities interact with a huge number of people, so it's pretty hard to judge how an accusation would or would not be credible.

    In some cases (Spacey, Moore, Weinstein) the number of independent accusations is so high that only a conspiracy theorist would think it was false. In others (Franken) there is actual physical evidence. But in others it's an accuser's word against the accused's word. It's unjust if a true accuser is not believed for lack of being able to produce evidence. It's also unjust if an innocent accused has his career ruined because of a baseless accusation.

    All I want is for people to be mindful of that. Mob "justice" is no more just today than it was in the days of lynch mobs.

  7. #157
    Astonishing Member AJBopp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    I don't see very much attention being paid to the question of credibility. I just see the accusation being reported and the public going "there's another one."

    Celebrities interact with a huge number of people, so it's pretty hard to judge how an accusation would or would not be credible.

    In some cases (Spacey, Moore, Weinstein) the number of independent accusations is so high that only a conspiracy theorist would think it was false. In others (Franken) there is actual physical evidence. But in others it's an accuser's word against the accused's word. It's unjust if a true accuser is not believed for lack of being able to produce evidence. It's also unjust if an innocent accused has his career ruined because of a baseless accusation.

    All I want is for people to be mindful of that. Mob "justice" is no more just today than it was in the days of lynch mobs.
    I haven't heard of corroborating evidence of the accusation against Sylvester Stallone, for example. But I also haven't heard much to suggest that it's being taken very seriously. Same with many other accusations. This doesn't, for now, appear to be a she said/he said-so-he-must-be-guilty sort of situation.

    I do see all kinds of attention being paid to credibility.
    Last edited by AJBopp; 11-17-2017 at 10:02 PM.
    Why yes, I AM a Mark Goodson/Bill Toddman production.

  8. #158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    The prevalence of sexual assault and harassment, however, doesn't mean that everyone who's accused of it is guilty of it. It's just as easy to make a false accusation as a true one. My fear of a "witch hunt" isn't the fear that there are no "witches," just that people aren't really caring who burns on the pyre as long as somebody does.
    Does it happen? Yes. Does it happen often? No. Given the way victims are treated by society, it is far far more likely that what they're saying really did happen to them, and it's safer to follow that path. Very few people want to step out and admit they were attacked or harassed in some way. Very few want to draw attention to themselves or have everyone who looks at them, even complete strangers, know what happened to them. The sort of person who would deliberately lie about getting attacked/harassed is incredibly rare, and would have to be stupid and callous toward actual victims of assault and harassment.

    Or to put it in thought experiment terms: if you had a reason to want to do it and knew you could get away with it, would you point at someone and lie about them sexually assaulting you? Separately, can you think of a reason that you, personally, not some theoretical person, would lie about a specific person sexually assaulting you? Especially someone famous that has millions of fans? And when I say thought experiment, I mean really think about it. Discard the comfort of knowing you're never going to really do it and think as though whatever response you give is what you're going to do immediately after you've said it.

    The slightly more likely risk for someone accused that's innocent would be the victim unknowingly accusing the wrong person. I say slightly because like people who would lie, very very few people would draw attention to themselves and do serious damage to someone else's life and reputation if they weren't sure of their accusation. It's far more likely for a victim who isn't certain of who did it to not name names. Especially, again, if it's someone famous.
    I can also be reached on Twitter and WordPress.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad, now complete!

  9. #159
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,440

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Does it happen? Yes. Does it happen often? No. Given the way victims are treated by society, it is far far more likely that what they're saying really did happen to them, and it's safer to follow that path. Very few people want to step out and admit they were attacked or harassed in some way. Very few want to draw attention to themselves or have everyone who looks at them, even complete strangers, know what happened to them. The sort of person who would deliberately lie about getting attacked/harassed is incredibly rare, and would have to be stupid and callous toward actual victims of assault and harassment.

    Or to put it in thought experiment terms: if you had a reason to want to do it and knew you could get away with it, would you point at someone and lie about them sexually assaulting you? Separately, can you think of a reason that you, personally, not some theoretical person, would lie about a specific person sexually assaulting you? Especially someone famous that has millions of fans? And when I say thought experiment, I mean really think about it. Discard the comfort of knowing you're never going to really do it and think as though whatever response you give is what you're going to do immediately after you've said it.

    The slightly more likely risk for someone accused that's innocent would be the victim unknowingly accusing the wrong person. I say slightly because like people who would lie, very very few people would draw attention to themselves and do serious damage to someone else's life and reputation if they weren't sure of their accusation. It's far more likely for a victim who isn't certain of who did it to not name names. Especially, again, if it's someone famous.
    Ezekiel Elliot just in recent memory. Granted it was domestic abuse, not sexual assault. The pragmatic approach is to assume nobody is lying and care for the victim while more facts role out. And maybe it's more likely the victim is telling the truth ( I can't tell you I don't know the numbers) it's FAR more damaging to the accused if you assume guilt and it's not true. So love the victim, just don't assume guilt on the accused. There's a middle ground besides a a full tilt all or nothing mob rule mentality.

  10. #160
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,965

    Default

    That's a pretty good approach... sympathize with the accusers, work toward the greater goal of making sexual harassment and abuse truly taboo, but don't assume that the accused are guilty unless there is real evidence.

    Would *I* make a false accusation of this kind if I had something to gain and knew I could get away with it? No. But I am not representative of all the people in the country. Some (many) people are sociopaths who just don't care. Some are angry people with scores to settle, or people hired by them. Some people are greedy for money or publicity, or desperate for it. Some people are delusional. If there's anything I've learned recently it's that there is nothing that some people won't stoop to. Nothing.

    I am *not* saying this is commonly happening among the accusers. But I am absolutely determined to maintain an attitude of innocent until proven guilty. In many of these cases, there is plenty of indication of guilt. In others there is only someone's say-so. I will not accuse anyone of lying without evidence of that, but neither will I take anything on faith. I've seen too much of how the world works circa AD 2017.

  11. #161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    That's a pretty good approach... sympathize with the accusers, work toward the greater goal of making sexual harassment and abuse truly taboo, but don't assume that the accused are guilty unless there is real evidence.

    Would *I* make a false accusation of this kind if I had something to gain and knew I could get away with it? No. But I am not representative of all the people in the country. Some (many) people are sociopaths who just don't care. Some are angry people with scores to settle, or people hired by them. Some people are greedy for money or publicity, or desperate for it. Some people are delusional. If there's anything I've learned recently it's that there is nothing that some people won't stoop to. Nothing.

    I am *not* saying this is commonly happening among the accusers. But I am absolutely determined to maintain an attitude of innocent until proven guilty. In many of these cases, there is plenty of indication of guilt. In others there is only someone's say-so. I will not accuse anyone of lying without evidence of that, but neither will I take anything on faith. I've seen too much of how the world works circa AD 2017.
    The intent of the thought experiment is to note how unlikely it is for someone to lie about assault/harassment. You're not representative of all people, but when it comes to laws and morality, a great majority of people would behave the same way. We would've had complete chaos by now with everything going on in the world if they didn't. As such, you can expect that except in rare extreme cases, a person is not going to accuse someone of this type of crime if they know the person didn't commit it. That some people would do it doesn't change that a great majority would not.
    I can also be reached on Twitter and WordPress.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad, now complete!

  12. #162
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,440

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    The intent of the thought experiment is to note how unlikely it is for someone to lie about assault/harassment. You're not representative of all people, but when it comes to laws and morality, a great majority of people would behave the same way. We would've had complete chaos by now with everything going on in the world if they didn't. As such, you can expect that except in rare extreme cases, a person is not going to accuse someone of this type of crime if they know the person didn't commit it. That some people would do it doesn't change that a great majority would not.
    Well first off the idea that it's the rarest unicorn in the world for a false allegation is just something you posited that is impossible to quantify considering 99% of these cases are too people by themselves in a room and it's an instant he said she said. So I'd have to ask you what your barometer is. Is it the verdict in court cases? Can't be that because quite a few of the accused are found not guilty and we know that can be slanted with burden of proof there. So I view that as a very false metric in general that we just have to take your word for and assume one person is lying and one person is telling the truth. Granted for people like Weinstien, Cosby, and Trump who have multiple accusers I lean on the side of the accused, but in the hundreds or thousands of one offs? That's impossible to determine a metric on who is lying and who isn't without some type of a definitive proof where there isn't one.

    So I think it's kind of a poor thought experiment especially when the outcome is "I'm going to believe anybody who accuses someone of this crime as a base and then proceed to label someone an assaulter and trash their career and reputation and ruin their life off a he said she said, without any proof besides someone else's word that I am correct or not".

    We know false accusations of every crime happen. We know false accusations of this crime happen. This particular crime is often one person's word against another person's word, making any real definitive conclusion on who was telling the truth exceptionally difficult compared to the great majority of the crimes. It just comes off as taking sides with the blindfolds on. I don't understand the rush to condemnation without having any knowledge besides a he said vs she said. It's so much easier to just sympathize with the victim and not make an assumption of guilt until the facts unfold then to potentially damage someones reputation because you felt the need to go on a crusade off very little information. Why there is even a need to do that I don't know. With people who have dozens of accusers and have been getting away with it for years, yeah then the situation changed and you start seeing patterns. It's why it's easy for us to look at Weinstien or Cosby and say "you know even if all of those cases aren't true, there's no way all those women are lying". In a case like CK who admitted it, again same thing. The majority of cases though, no not really. Better to err on the side of caution. You aren't hurting anyone by comforting the accusers, while not assuming guilt.

  13. #163
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,965

    Default

    All it takes is one false accuser to get caught, and the MRA's would spin it into a backlash that would threaten any progress that might come out of this whole deal. All they need is one small peg to hang a whole conspiracy theory on.

  14. #164

  15. #165
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,811

    Default

    at this point i think this harassment wave was done to bring down these internet tv channels.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •