Tom King's Batman: Yay or Nay

[Nero]

Nay, hence the reason why I dropped King's Batman. Yay on me saving $2.99 though. I have no interest in domesticated Batman.

[SiegePerilous02]

I can't really agree with that, not fully. I always thought him choosing to take his pain and morph it into heroism was incredibly admirable. Not in every way, mind you, but you can take something from that. It's important. It's noble. I can't stand the idea that Bruce becoming Batman is almost a completely negative development, that it was nothing but an escape attempt, like it speaks to him being an inherently insane or irreparably broken person. To me that comes from a place of ultimate cynicism and spits in the face of what characters like him originally stood for. That's why I hate the suicide angle so much, it implies that Bruce becoming Batman was just a boy escaping from his pain and that's it. It removes the nobility from the act and makes it far more of a hope-devoid sob story than it needs to be.

This hasn't really happened though, has it? At least not with an outcome that's completely negative. His altruism is still on display, what with all the lives lost during the war being at the forefront of his mind and his motivation to help Claire being simply that she's a girl who needed his help and he was in the position to do it.

Human beings are complicated creatures. I don't see why his decision to become Batman can't have both positive and negative reasons behind it. Especially as this is hardly new ground being covered with Batman. For better or (often times) worse, Batman is a very popular character for how dark and flawed he is. Grant Morrison wrote a best selling graphic novel about how fucked up Batman's mental state is back in the late 80s, filled with Freudian imagery and themes. If that didn't ruin Batman beyond repair, the stuff King has done so far sure as hell wont.

I also don't agree with the suicide angle when he was 10 years old being full of cynicism. A 10 year old exhibiting troubling behavior after such a serious trauma isn't cynical or a sob story, it's pretty realistic. I remember when that element was first discussed on here, some posters claimed it make Bruce "weak," which is frankly an alarming and pretty screwed up way to react to that behavior from a child.

[batfan08]

Honestly it seems to me like he just outright is ignorant of or disregards a lot of things that came before concerning the character. But other than that I agree.



I can't really agree with that, not fully. I always thought him choosing to take his pain and morph it into heroism was incredibly admirable. Not in every way, mind you, but you can take something from that. It's important. It's noble. I can't stand the idea that Bruce becoming Batman is almost a completely negative development, that it was nothing but an escape attempt, like it speaks to him being an inherently insane or irreparably broken person. To me that comes from a place of ultimate cynicism and spits in the face of what characters like him originally stood for. That's why I hate the suicide angle so much, it implies that Bruce becoming Batman was just a boy escaping from his pain and that's it. It removes the nobility from the act and makes it far more of a hope-devoid sob story than it needs to be.



Not to detract from what King is doing, because I like what he's attempting to accomplish with the character, but I think the reason that so many people continue to have issues with his run is not his intent or ambition, but the actual on-page content. Strange, off-putting and grating dialogue, characters acting OoC, awful pacing, decompression galore, inconsistent art, and dissonant narratives.

If we're talking about his arcs and issues rendered unto themselves, I loved I Am Suicide, Rooftops, and his one-off issues about Swamp Thing and Kite Man, but then I think about The War of Jokes and Riddles and honestly to me that arc was an over-hyped garbage pile of wasted opportunities, uneven storytelling, and awful characterization. I Am Bane felt like a lot of good buildup with an all-too rushed payoff, and I thought I Am Gotham was all-in-all mediocre and easily forgettable. A big problem with his work it that it's incredibly easy to nitpick, because King doesn't seem nearly as concerned with the details as he is with the overall plan, and details are important when you want to tell a truly great story. This is what makes me feel like all this ambition and all this bluster come not from a place of passion, but instead a more rational platform. Like he wants to make a statement about the character because Batman is the biggest thing in comics, not because he loves the character. And that's fine, you don't have to love a character to write them well, but I can't help but a little bit disappointed when I think about it.

See, I don’t see it that way, when it comes to presenting Batman as the product of a broken child’s trauma, because, honestly, that’s all Batman has ever been: a child’s power fantasy. There is something inherently immature and unrealistic about someone growing up and fighting crime with a mask and a cape. As much as I love superheroes, I will never not be able to see that. Take one look at those “real life superheroes” they showcase on the news, who look utterly ridiculous, and it clicks.

That being said, just because I think it’s fucking insane, that doesn’t mean I feel it has to be devoid of a sense of nobility. There is still something noble about Batman’s crusade, even if it is just his way of processing grief as a child, and, for me, that all makes sense because, without it, you wouldn’t have Batman; you’d have a Bruce Wayne who honored his parents’ memory by using the resources at his disposal to save Gotham the same way they did: through economics, through politics, through social programs, but, at the end of the day, nobody wants to read a comic book about a billionaire tackling systemic racism in the way the GCPD polices the narrows, so, we have that desire to do good manifested in an adult male who dresses like a bat and beats his problems into submission.

[Frontier]

I also don't agree with the suicide angle when he was 10 years old being full of cynicism. A 10 year old exhibiting troubling behavior after such a serious trauma isn't cynical or a sob story, it's pretty realistic. I remember when that element was first discussed on here, some posters claimed it make Bruce "weak," which is frankly an alarming and pretty screwed up way to react to that behavior from a child.

I think it's realistic behavior for a child, but I don't see Bruce Wayne after his parent's deaths acting like a realistic kid because I assume he finds his calling or drive for the mission immediately afterwards.

It's also kind of funny talking about realism and natural behavior when it comes to King's run .

[KC]

I don't like Tom King's Batman, to be honest, it is one of the worst comic runs I have ever read. I only buy it because it is so bad that I find it funny, not in a "so bad it's good" kind of way, in a "two clown cars crashing into each over" kind of way. funny, awful and I can't look away.

[AzraelOnline]

Nay. Every issue I read I constantly ask myself why I bothered :/

[SiegePerilous02]

I think it's realistic behavior for a child, but I don't see Bruce Wayne after his parent's deaths acting like a realistic kid because I assume he finds his calling or drive for the mission immediately afterwards.

It's also kind of funny talking about realism and natural behavior when it comes to King's run .

When you said immediately, do you mean like the night of or something? Because with King's setup, Bruce still found his calling and drive for the mission, and I don't recall King saying that the self harming period lasted all that long. He just didn't do it right away, which is more interesting because it shows how is response to his trauma develops instead of just clicking it like a light switch and saying "I will become Batman now." And he's never actually settled on being Batman specifically until he is an adult and sees a bat crash through his window.

Aside from some of the dialogue (and let's face, most dialogue in superhero comics is unnatural at best and stilted crap at worst anyway), there isn't anything unnatural about anyone's behavior so far. Relatively speaking, as they've all been absolute weirdos since before most of us were even born.

[Frontier]

When you said immediately, do you mean like the night of or something? Because with King's setup, Bruce still found his calling and drive for the mission, and I don't recall King saying that the self harming period lasted all that long. He just didn't do it right away, which is more interesting because it shows how is response to his trauma develops instead of just clicking it like a light switch and saying "I will become Batman now." And he's never actually settled on being Batman specifically until he is an adult and sees a bat crash through his window.

Or roundabouts fairly soon after.

Aside from some of the dialogue (and let's face, most dialogue in superhero comics is unnatural at best and stilted crap at worst anyway), there isn't anything unnatural about anyone's behavior so far. Relatively speaking, as they've all been absolute weirdos since before most of us were even born.

I dunno, King sometimes makes Morrison's and Snyder's dialogue and characterization feel naturalistic by comparison .

But then again I don't really subscribe to the notion that Batman and company are weirdos, their desire for costumes, quirks, and crime-fighting aside. Especially compared to the villains.

[WontonGirl]

So wait a minute, we get upset about Bruce's decision about being "suicide" and how that ultimately affected his decision to be a crime fighter BUT we are all good with the notion that Barbatos is essentially the reason why Bruce is who he is and has been pulling his strings all along?

How Sway?

[SiegePerilous02]

Or roundabouts fairly soon after.

The end result is still the same though, he just went through a mini-arc now that didn't even last that long. It's not like he was in his 20s when he decided on his path.
And I think the end result here is more compelling. And even more relateable for people who experienced similar traumas. Imagine being a kid and going through that, and having an example like Batman and being all "he went through something similar to the feelings I'm going through now, and look how awesome he turned out?"

I dunno, King sometimes makes Morrison's and Snyder's dialogue and characterization feel naturalistic by comparison .

Eh, maybe. But I'm used to binge reading stuff like Claremont's X-Men and Wolfman's Teen Titans when the mood strikes me. And in those, no character's thoughts, no matter how mundane, were glossed over when it came to expressing them in the most over the top dialogue possible ("Beware! For Trigon, he who is the demon who is my father, has gripped the ebony blackness of my soul! Pray for me Wallace! PRAY FOR MEH!!!" "It's a good thing a'hm invulnerable while a'hm blastin'!"). And that was basically the norm for the books that laid the foundations for these properties. Compared to that, a little "Bat" and "Cat" is pretty tame. We're not getting, nor ever really have been getting, Tarantino-level dialogue

But then again I don't really subscribe to the notion that Batman and company are weirdos, their desire for costumes, quirks, and crime-fighting aside. Especially compared to the villains.

But...they are. Superheroes are inherently weird, because no normal person in the real world would think about doing the things they do without being diagnosed with some mental illness. In the context of their universe, the superheroes are treated as the norm because it is a fantasy setting. But keep in mind, for a good many years, Batman was still regarded by his peers as being "the crazy one." He is at the very least a little eccentric. Let's call a spade a spade.

[WontonGirl]

The end result is still the same though, he just went through a mini-arc now that didn't even last that long. It's not like he was in his 20s when he decided on his path.
And I think the end result here is more compelling. And even more relateable for people who experienced similar traumas. Imagine being a kid and going through that, and having an example like Batman and being all "he went through something similar to the feelings I'm going through now, and look how awesome he turned out?"



Eh, maybe. But I'm used to binge reading stuff like Claremont's X-Men and Wolfman's Teen Titans when the mood strikes me. And in those, no character's thoughts, no matter how mundane, were glossed over when it came to expressing them in the most over the top dialogue possible ("Beware! For Trigon, he who is the demon who is my father, has gripped the ebony blackness of my soul! Pray for me Wallace! PRAY FOR MEH!!!" "It's a good thing a'hm invulnerable while a'hm blastin'!"). And that was basically the norm for the books that laid the foundations for these properties. Compared to that, a little "Bat" and "Cat" is pretty tame. We're not getting, nor ever really have been getting, Tarantino-level dialogue



But...they are. Superheroes are inherently weird, because no normal person in the real world would think about doing the things they do without being diagnosed with some mental illness. In the context of their universe, the superheroes are treated as the norm because it is a fantasy setting. But keep in mind, for a good many years, Batman was still regarded by his peers as being "the crazy one." He is at the very least a little eccentric. Let's call a spade a spade.

I don't think they would call Superman or a "lighter" superhero a weirdo. I think Batman exhibits a level of darkness, gloom, isolation and coldness that makes people think he is a weirdo. I mean, Flash, Spidey, Supes, shoot even Batgirl are friendly to strangers and people they helped. They sometimes make little jokes or quips with their villains or criminals. Batman doesn't do any of that. Because he is dealing in a darker setting, so he presents himself darker. He wants you to fear him.

The problem is sometimes he doesn't know how to separate the coldness for the criminal element and not being cold to people in his life. That's also part of what makes him a weirdo.

People see The Flash or Supes, they want to be a superhero. People see Batman, they want to run away.

[Frontier]

The end result is still the same though, he just went through a mini-arc now that didn't even last that long. It's not like he was in his 20s when he decided on his path.
And I think the end result here is more compelling. And even more relateable for people who experienced similar traumas. Imagine being a kid and going through that, and having an example like Batman and being all "he went through something similar to the feelings I'm going through now, and look how awesome he turned out?"

Calling it a "mini-arc" feels kind of weird given we never saw any of this on-panel and Batman just talked about it.

I get that it's relateable for probably a lot of people but it's personally not how I envision Bruce reacting to something, even as a child. I also think it would probably have been more compelling if we had actually gotten to see it.

Really, the franchise as a whole is a pretty much a testament to taking one's trauma and channeling into something positive, without getting into the topic of self-harm. I'm not saying it's something they can't or shouldn't address, but still.

Eh, maybe. But I'm used to binge reading stuff like Claremont's X-Men and Wolfman's Teen Titans when the mood strikes me. And in those, no character's thoughts, no matter how mundane, were glossed over when it came to expressing them in the most over the top dialogue possible ("Beware! For Trigon, he who is the demon who is my father, has gripped the ebony blackness of my soul! Pray for me Wallace! PRAY FOR MEH!!!" "It's a good thing a'hm invulnerable while a'hm blastin'!"). And that was basically the norm for the books that laid the foundations for these properties. Compared to that, a little "Bat" and "Cat" is pretty tame. We're not getting, nor ever really have been getting, Tarantino-level dialogue

Well, that kind of overt exposition and dialogue is almost like the opposite of what King's been doing.

Although it's kind of funny to think that Bruce and Selina talked more like normal people under Morrison then they have under King.

But...they are. Superheroes are inherently weird, because no normal person in the real world would think about doing the things they do without being diagnosed with some mental illness. In the context of their universe, the superheroes are treated as the norm because it is a fantasy setting. But keep in mind, for a good many years, Batman was still regarded by his peers as being "the crazy one." He is at the very least a little eccentric. Let's call a spade a spade.

Well, they look a little odd because their response to the crime and violence in the world around them is to put on a costume but personality-wise they're generally pretty sane and normal people once you get right down to it, even for those who have exaggerated personalities.

Batman being "the crazy one" is also pretty dependent on the writer. Sometimes he's legitimately the most rational and down-to-Earth one .

[SiegePerilous02]

Calling it a "mini-arc" feels kind of weird given we never saw any of this on-panel and Batman just talked about it.

I get that it's relateable for probably a lot of people but it's personally not how I envision Bruce reacting to something, even as a child. I also think it would probably have been more compelling if we had actually gotten to see it.

Really, the franchise as a whole is a pretty much a testament to taking one's trauma and channeling into something positive, without getting into the topic of self-harm. I'm not saying it's something they can't or shouldn't address, but still.

I do agree that actually seeing it would have been more compelling, but Bruce just talking about it still shouldn't have elicited the scandalized reaction from the fandom that it did. It was showing a vulnerability on his part that I guess segments of the fandom are not comfortable with. He wears black and drives a cool car, so I guess he can't even talk about times when he was weak?

How well defined is Bruce as a child, really? The majority of the time we know he likes things like Zorro and Gray Ghost, and he's sad that his parents got shot. We often hear that he was traumatized, but that's never really explored, he just goes on THE MISSION almost immediately afterward. Maybe King didn't explore it as much as he could have (thus far?), but it's more that what we are usually told happened. And he still ultimately ended up channeling it into something positive after a period that couldn't have been that long, so what even changed?

Well, that kind of overt exposition and dialogue is almost like the opposite of what King's been doing.

Although it's kind of funny to think that Bruce and Selina talked more like normal people under Morrison then they have under King.

It is the opposite, but no matter how overly detailed or sparse the style of writing, you are generally not going to be getting natural sounding dialogue in a superhero comic of all places. People don't really talk the way King writes most of the time, but nobody in real life talks like a superhero period.

Maybe Bruce and Selina sounded normal(ish) in Morrison's run, but you can probably find examples elsewhere in that very issue or Morrison's work in general with characters speaking in a weird way.

Batman being "the crazy one" is also pretty dependent on the writer. Sometimes he's legitimately the most rational and down-to-Earth one .

I generally prefer Batman being more down to Earth, which is why I vastly prefer pre-Crisis Bronze Age Bruce. But unfortunately, that has not been the case for the character since the 80s, and while he has returned to that mentality before, he just as often has not. We are still reading about a grown man in a dracula costume who drives a car with bat fins attached to it.

Complaints of Bruce acting overly weird in this run, and OOC complaints for the characters in general seem strange to me. Because with how often these characters get rebooted or re-interpreted depending on the writer who is using at the time (and that's not even getting into the at times radical other media appearances), I don't think anyone can rightly determine what is "in character" for someone. There is precedence for everything here with the exception of Holly, and even she is in a new continuity with a different history with a traumatic event in her past that I don't believe previous versions of her had to deal with.

[Chubistian]

I still can’t get all this controversy around Bruce almost committing suicide when he was like ten years old. In Snyder’s run, he had Bruce willingly wanting electro shock therapy and having second thoughts at last second. Was that as controversial back then? It’s a sincere question, since I didn’t frecuent cbr community by the time that issue was released and I find it similar to what King did. Personally, I don’t have a problem with either

[TheCape]

I wasn't around here when Zero Year hit, but it seems that people dislike that story as the new Bstman origin more often than not.