DC Wizards vs Marvel Mages

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

No Thanos brought him to his knees with an eye beam and his shields tanked Hulks blows. Hulk then followed him crawling to where the heroes were assembled (Hulk was the sentry hence attacked first). Hulk wasn't actually KOd. Thanos didn't bring him

I suppose you could say Thanos nearly one shotted Hulk without particularly trying, while his shields ignored Hulk wailing on him

The other fight with Gladiator, Hulk well... won

Ah, well. Memory fails again! But yea, I'd at least argue that the Thanos instance showed/proved, he could kill him rather easily. Helps that he casually dismisses him in Infinity, by punching him out of a leap before leaving Proxima to deal with him.

Also.. Yea. Hulk did win, by, uh *sigh* slowly walking over while Gladiator stands there and stares at him real hard. Then, manages to grab him by the face, KO'ing him with his own attack...

I mean there's a LOT wrong in it that, but it does prove that killing the Hulk through his HF is a thing that can happen. Zeus breaking it for awhile is good definitely above your typical Class 100s but I wouldn't give it up as something special for a Skyfather.

[Sharpandpointies]

You missed out ‘attempting to murder his siblings’ under his hobbies.

To be fair, it’s usually because Umar is plotting against him.

I've always seen Dormammu's status as Hell Lord not as a good description for him, but more that the other hell lords have a lot in common with the guy and invite him to their parties.

Then they find out he out-monologues...well, everyone, and never invite him back.

If Dormammu created Satannish, who's virtually Mephisto's equal (who in turn hangs out with Loki), then Dormammu would have to be levels above those three.

Whether we accept the whole ‘created Satannish’ thing, Furnace Face is clearly above that group.

My own point is that in the grand scheme of things it's more reflective of a very specific thing Dormammu is capable of than a power demonstration. If he has to go through a whole process to link himself to a reality that way, it's basically just the equivalent of knowing a really particularly kick ass ritual that if he can complete it, proceeds to let him then do stuff.

Marvel sorcery does not operate like that (back in the day, anyway, who the heck knows now?). Knowledge isn’t always power. Strange’s Crimson Bands are more powerful than Doom’s. Dormammu’s Crimson Bands are better than Strange’s. etc. A lot of it depends on the intrinsic ability of the user.

Whether or not this is some special magical ability the Dorm has, it demonstrates his level of power. Strange monkeys with time on a planetary basis, explodes planets to provide himself with propulsion, and casually deals with black hole. Furnace Face whups on him...outside of the Dark Dimension.

As another example of the gulf between them, an explicitly weakened Domammu produces Crimson Bands that massively outclass anything I’ve seen Strange whip up.

And he is capable of corrupting entire universes. Having to go through some lengthy thing to do it...it’s a universe. Odin is considered top tier for Skyfathers hereabouts, and he’s considered a dude who explodes galaxies. I suspect if he wanted to change the whole universe - something vastly larger than a galaxy - into something different, it might take him a little time, as well.

Mileage, it may vary. I’m just leery of using ‘not a skyfather’, the lack of a label, as being a reason for inferiority, rather than feats.

Sticking to Marvel and off the top of my head, punching up the Hulk so hard his entire healing factor breaks for an extended period (not "temporarily overwhelmed in fight", straight up becomes broken, and not even as something Zeus was going out of his way to try to do), and this while the Hulk is being written by Greg Pak no less where the Hulk's healing factor was basically ludicrous.

Physical strength is of import, then, and it’s not just overall power level? It’s not Dormammu’s forte(although there is that future thing where he fights Hollywood, anyone have that?) but I have little doubt he could equally easily dismiss the Hulk with something magical.

Serious question, I don’t actually know, how does Odin stack up against Thor strength wise?

[Beadle]

To be fair, it’s usually because Umar is plotting against him.

Clea: “But what did I do to deserve this?”

Then they find out he out-monologues...well, everyone, and never invite him back.

Nyeah, the Hell Lords have Belasco, the guy who basically bored Illyana Rasputin into becoming a de facto super villain.

Serious question, I don’t actually know, how does Odin stack up against Thor strength wise?

The guy who has fist-fights with Surtur, Ymir and frickin’ Galactus?

He does OK.

[Pendaran]

No Thanos brought him to his knees with an eye beam and his shields tanked Hulks blows. Hulk then followed him crawling to where the heroes were assembled (Hulk was the sentry hence attacked first). Hulk wasn't actually KOd. Thanos didn't bring him

I suppose you could say Thanos nearly one shotted Hulk without particularly trying, while his shields ignored Hulk wailing on him

The other fight with Gladiator, Hulk well... won

It's a little bit into semantics if Thanos from one eyebeam zot reduces the Hulk to his knees and reduces him to crawling after him to note the Hulk not being screwed up by little effort from Thanos.

As for Gladiator.. the Hulk won a fight where his hands were somehow vastly more durable than his chest that Glads had blasted all the way through to his heart, and a fight where Gladiator uses his speed at the opening faster than the Hulk can perceive, and then for the rest of it decides to... not.

That fight has some asterisks is what I'm saying ;p

Anyway my point with Zeus is it's not the KO or whatever that is the point, it's the point that Zeus broke part of the Hulk's powerset in an era where that was one of the strongest parts of the Hulk's powerset, and wasn't even really trying to as I recall it.

Physical strength is of import, then, and it’s not just overall power level? It’s not Dormammu’s forte(although there is that future thing where he fights Hollywood, anyone have that?) but I have little doubt he could equally easily dismiss the Hulk with something magical.

It's not simply physically dismissing, it's that Zeus crippled part of the Hulk's powers as basically a side effect of attacking him. He had healing factor problems for a stretch post the Zeus encounter.

I mean there's a LOT wrong in it that, but it does prove that killing the Hulk through his HF is a thing that can happen. Zeus breaking it for awhile is good definitely above your typical Class 100s but I wouldn't give it up as something special for a Skyfather.

Again to note this more clearly. Killing or KOing the Hulk is one thing. Beating the Hulk so bad it disrupts how his powers work is something else.

[Pendaran]

Marvel sorcery does not operate like that (back in the day, anyway, who the heck knows now?). Knowledge isn’t always power. Strange’s Crimson Bands are more powerful than Doom’s. Dormammu’s Crimson Bands are better than Strange’s. etc. A lot of it depends on the intrinsic ability of the user.

Whether or not this is some special magical ability the Dorm has, it demonstrates his level of power. Strange monkeys with time on a planetary basis, explodes planets to provide himself with propulsion, and casually deals with black hole. Furnace Face whups on him...outside of the Dark Dimension.

As another example of the gulf between them, an explicitly weakened Domammu produces Crimson Bands that massively outclass anything I’ve seen Strange whip up.

And he is capable of corrupting entire universes. Having to go through some lengthy thing to do it...it’s a universe. Odin is considered top tier for Skyfathers hereabouts, and he’s considered a dude who explodes galaxies. I suspect if he wanted to change the whole universe - something vastly larger than a galaxy - into something different, it might take him a little time, as well.

Mileage, it may vary. I’m just leery of using ‘not a skyfather’, the lack of a label, as being a reason for inferiority, rather than feats.

It's the closest analogy I have to noting that I'm not really buying it as something that speaks to Dormammu's overall potency when it's something that is the specific result of a prolonged process that he has to do to make it work. It's not like he's Gangrel, using Protean 10 to just one off will themselves as one with the Earth because they just want to be and then start screwing around, while otherwise possessing various other abilities whose scale tops out around that level of effect. The closest analogy basically is that he knows a really specific ritual that has super great results for him because he doesn't otherwise operate remotely on that scale, and when he's able to operate on that scale, it's the result of having gone through a drawn out process in order to do so.

Mileage, it may vary. I’m just leery of using ‘not a skyfather’, the lack of a label, as being a reason for inferiority, rather than feats.

It is my short form for "not on the scale of Odin or the people who could be argued as lesser variants thereof". I don't see him for instance, let's say, blasting the Hulk a few times and as a result the Hulk's powers no longer wurk gud.

In the case of Shazam, the Rock of Eternity is full of a lot of crazy nonsense. Said crazy nonsense is imprisoned there, because in a wide variety of cases the Wizard personally imprisoned them there. He/his power sources built the Rock by mashing chunks of heaven and hell together. One of the very least of things Shazam jammed into his fortress are single words that can destroy cities. So forth.

[Shellhead]

Thanos did it in the newer/newest Starlin TPB, one where the new/alternate Adam Warlock one-shots the Surfer, IIRC. Beat him near to death, then brought the Hulk to the surviving heroes as a gesture of goodwill. Gladiator nearly did it with his heat vision or what have you.

I am big fan of Starlin, but I sometimes get frustrated with his Adam Warlock. Sometimes Adam is pulling off wins that just aren't supported by his explicit powers, which are basically just superhuman strength and toughness plus the Soul Gem when he has it. Given that Adam was raised in a literal cocoon by a bunch of scientists, there is no basis for his combat skills, which should probably be no better than those of Wonder Man, featuring relatively unskilled basic brawling. Adam beating the Hulk I could maybe see, though it sounds sketchy. One-shotting the Surfer? No, just no.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I am big fan of Starlin, but I sometimes get frustrated with his Adam Warlock. Sometimes Adam is pulling off wins that just aren't supported by his explicit powers, which are basically just superhuman strength and toughness plus the Soul Gem when he has it. Given that Adam was raised in a literal cocoon by a bunch of scientists, there is no basis for his combat skills, which should probably be no better than those of Wonder Man, featuring relatively unskilled basic brawling. Adam beating the Hulk I could maybe see, though it sounds sketchy. One-shotting the Surfer? No, just no.

Well in this instance it meshes well enough, becuase it happened 1) while Surfer was distracted and engaging Thanos, 2) it wasn't the 616 Warlock, from what I remember

He basically hits him from behind and comments about how they didn't have time/needed the Surfer alive

[Sharpandpointies]

Clea: “But what did I do to deserve this?”

Clea: not a sibling.

Unless they’ve retconned something, in which case ugh, gross. I

Anyway my point with Zeus is it's not the KO or whatever that is the point, it's the point that Zeus broke part of the Hulk's powerset in an era where that was one of the strongest parts of the Hulk's powerset, and wasn't even really trying to as I recall it.

I’m fairly sure Furnace Face could manage something similar with his own reality warping magic, but I understand where you’re coming from.

It's the closest analogy I have to noting that I'm not really buying it as something that speaks to Dormammu's overall potency when it's something that is the specific result of a prolonged process that he has to do to make it work. It's not like he's Gangrel, using Protean 10 to just one off will themselves as one with the Earth because they just want to be and then start screwing around, while otherwise possessing various other abilities whose scale tops out around that level of effect. The closest analogy basically is that he knows a really specific ritual that has super great results for him because he doesn't otherwise operate remotely on that scale, and when he's able to operate on that scale, it's the result of having gone through a drawn out process in order to do so.

I get what you mean.

However, for me it’s less Ennoia, and more Tremere and his ‘control everything’ ritual. He had to be 3rd generation to use it. Similarly here. Dormammu does not operate at a ‘universal level’ (then again, neither do Skyfathers). However, him being capable of using a ritual of power that can do what it does indicates a certain level of You Must Be This Tall To Get On This Ride. Umar can’t, as an example.

But different viewpoints, and I can see yours. Mileage, as always, may very.

[Beadle]

Clea: not a sibling.

Unless they’ve retconned something, in which case ugh, gross.

Point. My bad.

[Powerboy]

Point. My bad.

Then there was that one comedy Defenders mini-series.

Dormammu (or the Dorm): "I'm hot for Umar."

Everybody else: "Dude, she's your sister."

The Dorm: "But but but but what I meant was I'm always hot cause I'm like, ya know, the Dorm."

[The Drunkard Kid]

Hasn't Umar broken Hulk's rage before?

*whistles innocently*