So....Last nights revisionist history on AMC

[Midnighter]

So....Last nights revisionist history on AMC, brought to you by way of Robert Kirkman , where "Stan the used car salesman Lee" built the Marvel U all by himself and Kirby and Ditko were , I don't know .....just sort of there?

Thoughts? Feelings?

I knew Stan was shameless but, my god not that shameless.

He must have at least come up with the idea for Mister Fantastic because only someone that pliable could bend over and kiss their own ass that way.

[Citizen Kane]

I have no idea what you're talking about (link?), but I'm quite amused by your reaction.

[Of Atlantis]

I'm confused.

Are you paraphrasing or is that an actual quote?

Lee and Kirby rarely get the respect they deserve, regardless.

[SXVA]

I watched that episode and i'm sickened by the way Jack Kirby was treated by Marvel. I teared up a bit in sadness. The guy is largely responsible for at least half of Marvel's existence through his passionate blood, sweat and tears and never really got awarded what he was deserved mainly because he wasn't out in front with a big personality and the unseen artist down in a dungeon laboring away. Respect to people like Todd McFarlane who at least took inspiration from Jack Kirby's experience and made something good out of it. I don't think Stan Lee's a bad guy but it did come across like he could've did more for Kirby and was too focused on being the star himself/you could get the vibe of some of it in that phone call where Stan Lee was emphasizing he wrote every single line when Kirby was making a case for his own influence. I just feel for Kirby. Reminds me of some of those old musicians who did amazing things in their time and it was mostly rewarded to other people and not them. Some of whom even died broke and without recognition despite their everlasting influence on the art form. One thing i was especially surprised about and never knew is DC originally passed on Kirby not liking his art, whoa. Talk about a mistake hehe. Also i didn't realize DC sort of had a strangehold on Marvel's publishing and so Stan Lee had to form a grass roots campaign to get around that. It's a pretty interesting story just wish Kirby (and Ditko) had more to show for his contribution at the time. Apparently Ditko left for similar reasons at the time also. Imagine having such a big influence on these creations and then it basically being taken out of your hands and you having no say or choice in any of it. Madness. I can't stand so, so much how money/corporations/establishment affects art in that way.

One thing i disagreed with though is that it made it seem like DC's comics at the time were so basic that only a 7 year old could enjoy it and Marvel was soooo revolutionary in it's writing. Cmon now. I've read some of those initial Justice League comics which the Fantastic 4 was in response of and it wasn't like that exactly. Also, there were other crime/fantasy/war/romance comics at the time with some fairly complex writing to where Marvel's writing wasn't that revolutionary. I felt like that's a bit exaggerated in how amazing the writing for Marvel was during this period. I think the Marvel brilliance was more in the creation than the writing. I mean, a lot of those creations are having huge success on the big screens and smaller screens today in the form of motion picture and i believe that's more rooted in the creation process than about the specific writing.

[Alan2099]

Part of that is the fact that Kirby didn't really want to be in the spotlight and Stan did. it's kind of hard to give people equal billing when one of them isn't putting on a show the way the other is.

[Rosebunse]

I didn't think the documentary was entirely kissing Stan Lee's ass. For one, it pointed out that Ditko and Kirbyville were amazing artists who got screwed because they weren't showman like Stan Lee was. The two men are cautionary tales, remembered for their pain and undervalue as much for their revolutionary art.

Unlike many documentaries I've seen on the subject, I think it did a fair job of explaining why. Not only did they lack Stan Lee's charisma, but due to the very nature of their jobs they couldn't be as involved in the promotion of the work as they could have been.

And I think it was fair for the documentary to point out that it is very easy for us to blame Stan Lee, the public face of Marvel, and not blame the faceless corporate folks behind what happened.

And while Stan Lee certainly contributed a lot more to Marvel than many of us admit, he also had his own hand in mistreating Kirby and Ditko through the "Marvel Method" and he could have done a lot more to look out for them as colleagues.

[JackDaw]

I like “Uncle” Stan.

But I like Jack Kirby even more....especially when I think about the grinding effort he must have put in to produce so many wonderful comics.

And yes..I think it’s likely that Jack and Steve Ditko may have been even more responsible for success of Marvel’s main creations than Stan.

Anybody who really believes that Stan made really detailed specs for characters like Spider-man needs to look at original Kirby and Ditko designs for same character. Impossible (I think) to believe that two great artists came up with such different designs IF Stan had given them a detailed spec.

Stan left a lot to his artists!

And certainly always surprised that Marvel doesn’t get as much stick for their treatment of Jack as DC does for treatment of Shuster and Siegel. Making him fight to get his artwork back was poor beyond belief. Yes..Marvel were (almost certainly) legally correct in their dealings..but Jeez..Jack’s genius made a fortune for the company.

[Moon Ronin]

Here is an interview with Jack Kirby is a long read but enjoyable. Have to say after reading it I really did not Stan Lee that much after.

[Rosebunse]

If there's one thing you have to give to Kirby, it's that his designs really have aged extremely well. You can't say that about most comic book art or Stan Lee's dialogue, but you can say that about Jack Kirby's work.

[gurkle]

The thing about Stan is, I like the guy, but no one should ever believe much of what he's said since about 1970. Before Kirby left, Stan seemed a bit more candid in with the media and openly told reporters that Kirby "does all the breakdowns and basic plots and I dialogue."

After Kirby left, maybe even a bit before, he started inflating his own role more. Partly it's self-serving memory, partly it's that he likes to tell stories about himself, but it's also a business thing: as soon as Kirby was gone, it was necessary to tell the world that Kirby was never so important anyway.

Everyone has self-serving memory of course; Kirby certainly had his share, but the number of interviews he did is dwarfed by the number Lee did, plus he came out of the whole thing with much less money and job security. That's not all Lee's fault but you can't blame him for feeling like Lee should have helped him more instead of trying to play down his contribution.

Marvel Comics is obviously shaped by Lee's tastes and style as an editor, writer and promoter - you only have to look at the comics Kirby wrote and edited himself to see that they're not like the ones he did for Lee (and many of his fans like them better for exactly that reason). But just as obviously, he depended on his artists to generate a lot of story material, and in Ditko and Kirby's case to just plot as they drew. Anything that makes it sound like he dictated all the ideas to his artists is obviously telling the story wrong.

[Mackandal]

I feel sorry for Kirby. Ditko though? If he's not getting the credit he deserves, well, that's just the free market at work. Stevie should have worked harder.

[Alan2099]

Marvel Comics is obviously shaped by Lee's tastes and style as an editor, writer and promoter - you only have to look at the comics Kirby wrote and edited himself to see that they're not like the ones he did for Lee (and many of his fans like them better for exactly that reason).

Personally, I find a lot of the stuff Kirby did without Lee to come across as too heavy for it's own good and his characters lacking in personality.

[Rosebunse]

Personally, I find a lot of the stuff Kirby did without Lee to come across as too heavy for it's own good and his characters lacking in personality.

This is how I feel. His designs are, again, groundbreaking and even his oddest ones manage to hold up even now. Heck, just look at the new Thor movie which draws heavily from Kirby. It works! An artists has to have major balls to deconstruct Kirby.

However, his stuff without Stan Lee and without outside help just doesn't stand up as well. As comic book fans, I know we're supposed to revere Jack Kirby, but his actual dialogue and characterization was lacking and that's why his own stuff just didn't sell.

[Sighphi]

So....Last nights revisionist history on AMC, brought to you by way of Robert Kirkman , where "Stan the used car salesman Lee" built the Marvel U all by himself and Kirby and Ditko were , I don't know .....just sort of there?

Thoughts? Feelings?

I knew Stan was shameless but, my god not that shameless.

He must have at least come up with the idea for Mister Fantastic because only someone that pliable could bend over and kiss their own ass that way.

whatever show you watch you blame it on them. They are the ones that write and edit it.

[Username taken]

whatever show you watch you blame it on them. They are the ones that write and edit it.

Quoted for truth.