SPOILERS Wonder Woman in Justice League SPOILERS

[RealWonderman]

In comics and in Hollywood, female characters can have their very special "grrrrl power!" moments, but a girl can never be the equal of a boy. Gracious no.

(not until more women are writing, editing, producing, and running things, that is.)

Diana was shown to be superior to every male character, except amped-up-Motherbox-resurrected Superman.

[RealWonderman]

The best Saturday morning cartoon ever is Young Justice, and is a lot better than this

Disagree. I think this movie is great! Can’t waut to see it again today. (YJ is good, too.)

[RealWonderman]

Besides the professional critics and the critics on this board, people really seem to enjoy this movie! I’m all in with that!! But I also would LOVE to see the original cut! I hope we get that on Blu-ray, and I hope it’s not as much of a superior version as the UC of BvS was to the theater version.

[brettc1]

Saw it. Loved it!

Regarding Diana's power level? Nope. I saw the exact same level of power we saw her demonstrate in BvS.

1.) Slicing apart that statue head? Totally reminiscent of her slicing that car Doomsday threw at her. In fact, that's arguably a better feat, since that head was DEFINITELY more dense than your typical car. Unless it was made of talc, that was a heck of a display of strength.

2.) Her fight with Steppenwolf? Same thing as Doomsday. Yeah, she took some hits. Hits that seemed to do absolutely NOTHING to her. She got back up every time she got knocked down and showed no signs of being injured or even fatigued by the end of the fight. Just like Doomsday, Diana looked like she could've gone another ten rounds with ol' Steppy.

3.) Meanwhile? Just like Doomsday, Diana inflicted bodily harm on Steppenwolf, whereas he seemed to inflict none upon her. Sure, she didn't dismember him like she did Doomsday, but she sliced him across the abdomen, and he was CLEARLY still holding the wound as if it were a real problem for him instead of a minor inconvenience.

4.) Diana hurt him. He didn't hurt her. She was still standing strong at the end of the fight. He was limping away and sufficiently afraid that his own Parademons turned on him.

'But Superman hurt him WORSE than Diana did!"

Did he? Did he really? How much blood did Clark draw? Answer: not a drop. Once again, NONE of Superman's offense seemed to have a lasting effect on Steppenwolf. He hit him a couple times, heat visioned him, and froze his axe so Diana could shatter it. That was about the entirety of his contribution to the fight, other than breaking off to go help civilians at one point. Sure, his punches actually sent Steppenwolf flying. Big deal! He still had nothing really to do with Steppwolf's actual defeat other than being the first punch in a one-two punch between him and Diana to disarm him.

As for the Justice League fight? Diana was not made to look bad for Superman's benefit. That scene did NOT prove that Superman is more powerful than Diana because Diana was HARDLY using her full power against him in that fight. Her status as a great fighter is also not in question because she clearly wasn't TRYING to use her skills to defeat him. Diana held WAY back against Superman because she didn't want to risk hurting him and she definitely didn't want to potentially start a superpower brawl in the middle of a city full of millions of innocent people.

Diana has two aspects: Warrior and Diplomat. That scene was her in "Diplomat" Mode. If she and Clark ever have a serious throwdown, she'll be in "Warrior" mode and will do better against him.

Okay. I've made my statements. I'm sure I've done nothing to win over anyone, but that's just par-for-the-course around here.

Since we don't see a subtitle on the screen saying "Wonder Woman is holding back" there is no evidence to say she did. We can WANT to believe that, but the other equally possibel context here is the big alpha male beat down the tough but inferior woman. NO AMBIGUITY! NO WIGGLE ROOM! If she is his match show it and make it clear. Supergirl's season 3 finale did it so there is no excuse for failing on the big screen.

How many times did Clark hit SW? Several. How many times did SW hit Clark? Never. Not once. Superman can neutralize his axe just by breathing on it. Every punch he lands hits like a nuke and sends SW flying. He cracks jokes about how little a threat this guy is (to him.) The entirety of his contribution to the fight is exactly as you described it and that is all he needed to do to to tip the scales.

Yes, Diana hurt SW - with help from Arthur. That is the difference. The very clear impression is that Arthur and Diana needed Clark's help, but if had 30 seconds to spare he could have done it all by himself.

Slicing anything with a sword is not as impressive as punching someone though a wall when it comes to feats of strength, because you can argue back and forth about what is doing the work, muscle or sword? Luke Skywalker doesn't need super strength to cut through metal doors with a light sabre.

[brettc1]

Diana was shown to be superior to every male character, except amped-up-Motherbox-resurrected Superman.

Again, this is wishful thinking. There is nothing in the movie to say the MB made Superman more powerful.

Not sure how she is superior to Flash, considering he is the only one shown as fast enough to keep up with Clark.

Besides the professional critics and the critics on this board, people really seem to enjoy this movie! I’m all in with that!! But I also would LOVE to see the original cut! I hope we get that on Blu-ray, and I hope it’s not as much of a superior version as the UC of BvS was to the theater version.

Once again, no. There are folks on IMDB who also don't like it that much. I gave it a 6 out of 10, which is what 22% of current audience reviews gave it [or lower]

[Rig]

Some sources are predicting less than 100m opening weekend. All DCEU movies have made more than 100m Dom in their OW.

[Vanguard-01]

Since we don't see a subtitle on the screen saying "Wonder Woman is holding back" there is no evidence to say she did. We can WANT to believe that, but the other equally possibel context here is the big alpha male beat down the tough but inferior woman. NO AMBIGUITY! NO WIGGLE ROOM! If she is his match show it and make it clear. Supergirl's season 3 finale did it so there is no excuse for failing on the big screen.

There's plenty of wiggle room. You don't need a subtitle that says she's holding back. You just have to look at what's happening on screen and remember what kind of character Diana is. IS she the type to brutally beat down a confused man who only appears to be defending himself? Nope. Was she talking to him the whole time, trying to get him to see reason? Yep. Then, as night follows day, it's pretty clear Diana wasn't TRYING to outpower Clark.

That scene wasn't ABOUT showing that Diana is Clark's match. That scene was about bringing Clark back, dealing with the consequences of that action, and helping Clark get his head on straight so he can actually be useful to the story. If Diana and Clark ever face off in a legit fight in which both sides legitimately feel they NEED to win, THAT will be a scene that's all about showing the power comparisons between the two characters. And if Diana gets owned in a few seconds? Yeah, that'll be disappointing. This scene, however? Means nothing. A fight is not a contest of strength if only one side of it is actually trying to make it about that.

How many times did Clark hit SW? Several. How many times did SW hit Clark? Never. Not once.

That proves he's fast and shows the benefit of flight as an evasive tactic. Means nothing. His attacks still did no visible harm to Steppy.

Superman can neutralize his axe just by breathing on it.

That's been a power he's had for decades. Meanwhile, Diana also "neutralized" the axe by simply not allowing it to hit her.

Every punch he lands hits like a nuke and sends SW flying.

Nukes do damage. Clark's punches didn't.

He cracks jokes about how little a threat this guy is (to him.)

I don't remember a single quote of him saying Steppy is no threat. I saw him confidently step up to attack the big, scary monster. If you think Superman should fly into every battle wetting himself, that's your problem.

The entirety of his contribution to the fight is exactly as you described it and that is all he needed to do to to tip the scales.

He inflicted no damage. Diana and Arthur did. He was part of a team effort to take him down and force his retreat.

Yes, Diana hurt SW - with help from Arthur. That is the difference. The very clear impression is that Arthur and Diana needed Clark's help, but if had 30 seconds to spare he could have done it all by himself.

Evidence that Diana and Arthur needed help? Not one of them walked away from that fight looking injured or even tired. Sure, they weren't dominating Steppy in the fight, but I saw no evidence that they were in danger of losing before Clark showed up.

So, yeah. Maybe YOU had a "very clear impression," that they needed his help, but that could have something to do with the fact that you were LOOKING for such an impression and you found one. I just sat back and analyzed data. No damage or fatigue on Diana and Arthur tells me that the fight was nowhere near over. Meanwhile? They proved they could hurt Steppenwolf, whereas he didn't seem capable of doing the same. That leads me to conclude that had the fight continued without Clark, Diana and Arthur would've taken him down eventually. Clark just sped up the process.

Slicing anything with a sword is not as impressive as punching someone though a wall when it comes to feats of strength, because you can argue back and forth about what is doing the work, muscle or sword? Luke Skywalker doesn't need super strength to cut through metal doors with a light sabre.

What do you want to hear? "Diana probably isn't as strong as Superman?" Okay. You've heard it. This is nothing new. Diana ISN'T as strong as Superman.

Since when does Diana's value as a character begin and end at how much weight she can lift? Sounds like some of that "toxic masculinity" at work in this logic. Diana accomplishes the same objectives Superman does. She just tends to accomplish it through finesse and technique, rather than raw, brute strength.

Her sword did damage. Superman's fists didn't. The sword is more effective than Superman's strength. It doesn't matter if Diana isn't exactly as strong as he is. She can do things he can't and THAT makes her unique. She's certainly strong enough and fast enough to hang with Clark (in a situation where she isn't holding back) so that's pretty much a null issue unless you genuinely believe that physical strength is the ONLY thing that matters in determining a character's worth.

[dianafan1985]

Saw it. Loved it!

Regarding Diana's power level? Nope. I saw the exact same level of power we saw her demonstrate in BvS.

1.) Slicing apart that statue head? Totally reminiscent of her slicing that car Doomsday threw at her. In fact, that's arguably a better feat, since that head was DEFINITELY more dense than your typical car. Unless it was made of talc, that was a heck of a display of strength.

2.) Her fight with Steppenwolf? Same thing as Doomsday. Yeah, she took some hits. Hits that seemed to do absolutely NOTHING to her. She got back up every time she got knocked down and showed no signs of being injured or even fatigued by the end of the fight. Just like Doomsday, Diana looked like she could've gone another ten rounds with ol' Steppy.

3.) Meanwhile? Just like Doomsday, Diana inflicted bodily harm on Steppenwolf, whereas he seemed to inflict none upon her. Sure, she didn't dismember him like she did Doomsday, but she sliced him across the abdomen, and he was CLEARLY still holding the wound as if it were a real problem for him instead of a minor inconvenience.

4.) Diana hurt him. He didn't hurt her. She was still standing strong at the end of the fight. He was limping away and sufficiently afraid that his own Parademons turned on him.

'But Superman hurt him WORSE than Diana did!"

Did he? Did he really? How much blood did Clark draw? Answer: not a drop. Once again, NONE of Superman's offense seemed to have a lasting effect on Steppenwolf. He hit him a couple times, heat visioned him, and froze his axe so Diana could shatter it. That was about the entirety of his contribution to the fight, other than breaking off to go help civilians at one point. Sure, his punches actually sent Steppenwolf flying. Big deal! He still had nothing really to do with Steppwolf's actual defeat other than being the first punch in a one-two punch between him and Diana to disarm him.

As for the Justice League fight? Diana was not made to look bad for Superman's benefit. That scene did NOT prove that Superman is more powerful than Diana because Diana was HARDLY using her full power against him in that fight. Her status as a great fighter is also not in question because she clearly wasn't TRYING to use her skills to defeat him. Diana held WAY back against Superman because she didn't want to risk hurting him and she definitely didn't want to potentially start a superpower brawl in the middle of a city full of millions of innocent people.

Diana has two aspects: Warrior and Diplomat. That scene was her in "Diplomat" Mode. If she and Clark ever have a serious throwdown, she'll be in "Warrior" mode and will do better against him.

Okay. I've made my statements. I'm sure I've done nothing to win over anyone, but that's just par-for-the-course around here.

The overwhelming majority of your statements are based upon wishful thinking instead of evidence, so you have not managed to win me over in the least. Which is unsurprising. I just watched a movie where Diana was outclassed in several categories and instances by people who should never be outclassing her (as well as vice verse). As a fan, I cannot say that I was impressed by her great brute strength or skill, because it never existed.

If that happens to impress you or others, by all means brother, more power to ya!

[dianafan1985]

Since when does Diana's value as a character begin and end at how much weight she can lift?

Since her inception: she was made to be equal in strength to Superman. No compromises, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with any fan of Wonder Woman, who has an expectation for Diana to deliver in the brute strength and skill categories ON PAR WITH SUPERMAN.

[dianafan1985]

Has anyone here changed your mind about something? You make it sound like if we don't give in to your opinions, then it seems to invalidate ours.

I came out with a totally different opinion than yours on this movie. Does that mean it's just par for the course to you because I couldn't get you to agree to 'come over to my side of thinking?'

Let's face it, Diana jobbed as well as the other leaguers, to Superman. It wasn't even a competent showing for her. The same goes with her battles with Steppenwolf.

Also, how did Diana think clanging her bracers was somehow going to stop Superman? Too bad that Supermans superspeed was far faster than Diana's to see if it had an effect. It sure didn't effect Doomsday or Steppenwolf when she used it on them.

You basically said everything I wanted to say. I don't know why anyone would think it is their duty to convince anyone to think in a certain manner. You have your opinions, I have mine. Simple as that.

[dianafan1985]

Since we don't see a subtitle on the screen saying "Wonder Woman is holding back" there is no evidence to say she did. We can WANT to believe that, but the other equally possibel context here is the big alpha male beat down the tough but inferior woman. NO AMBIGUITY! NO WIGGLE ROOM! If she is his match show it and make it clear. Supergirl's season 3 finale did it so there is no excuse for failing on the big screen.

How many times did Clark hit SW? Several. How many times did SW hit Clark? Never. Not once. Superman can neutralize his axe just by breathing on it. Every punch he lands hits like a nuke and sends SW flying. He cracks jokes about how little a threat this guy is (to him.) The entirety of his contribution to the fight is exactly as you described it and that is all he needed to do to to tip the scales.

Yes, Diana hurt SW - with help from Arthur. That is the difference. The very clear impression is that Arthur and Diana needed Clark's help, but if had 30 seconds to spare he could have done it all by himself.

Slicing anything with a sword is not as impressive as punching someone though a wall when it comes to feats of strength, because you can argue back and forth about what is doing the work, muscle or sword? Luke Skywalker doesn't need super strength to cut through metal doors with a light sabre.

I am actually laughing my butt off how anyone could think Diana was holding back against Steppenwolf, but never held back against Doomsday. Why in God's name would she hold back her punches against a powerful diabolical creature who is a colossal threat against civilian lives/innocent people, let alone her friends? I am still trying to find the logic why anybody would find it necessary to defend these obvious scenes.

[Titan Theo]

Again, I am going to point out I don't think anyone has a problem with Clark beating the league or even maybe having a little hand up on Stepenwolf. I think people have a problem with how it was shown to us. Superman is the strongest. We all get it. But should he be so much stronger than Diana AND Arthur at the same time, with assist from Cyborg, who should be way up there as well? Probably not. I won't even bring Barry into this because he's the kid in this story, who doesn't know the full scope of his power. But we just saw Diana moving at similar speeds at the beginning of the movie, and with Arthur being able to swim hundreds of miles per hour, Clark maybe shouldn't seem so much more powerful than them.

Again, if he is that much more powerful than them, what is the point? Cyborg and Flash are young and new. That made sense. Arthur and Diana not even able to restrain him? Nah. I'm not buying it

You got it! "Look, Ma, no hands, I can choke Diana and Aquaman together, either of which can probably escape from that hold with their martial ability, and still track the Flash on top of that...WW strength level is not even worth one of Superman's arms!"

I would not be surprised if DC gave WW the fabulous beginning and fairly ok I can hold my own against Steppenwolf parts with WW just so to distract us from the Superman needs to prove that he has the largest ****

[Titan Theo]

Fair point re Doomsday.

Upon further reflection, it was seeing Arthur landing direct hits on Steppenwolf that triggered my positing Diana could at the very least punch or kick Steppenwolf and that Steppenwolf would reel from the impact thereof.

s
The Ares that Diana fought was his weakened version and clearly without the Olympians that pre war would have favored Steppen's forces and him, and wasn't one of the gods that blasted the mother boxes to separate...we know not yet the full powers of the Olympians.

[SiegePerilous02]

And in what way was Doomsday hurt? The same with Steppenwolf---how was he hurt after that? Nada, Zilch

Maybe he wasn't, but it got him away from Batman (so she accomplished her goal). And how much long term pain/damage did Superman do in that fight? Wonder Woman was dealing more consistent damage throughout the battle because she's fresh for the fight and has way more experience as a warrior, slicing up his leg and chopping off his hand (causing him visible pain) and the incredibly weakened Superman wouldn't have been able to deliver the killing blow if Wonder Woman wasn't restraining him with the lasso (along with Batman's Kryptonite grenade). There is also the fact that Batman would have been DEAD and likely Superman wouldn't have been able to survive on his own in his weakened state if Wonder Woman hadn't shown up to help and contribute in the team-based battle.

And seeing as how she was the only runaway success from that movie that audiences loved, it's evident that no problem actually exists. Wonder Woman fans are like the only ones who don't have anything to complain about as far as the DCEU is concerned.

It used to. It was significantly depowered by the post-Crisis reboot.

Which is something I always find super lame. But if the filmmaker's went with the post-Crisis lasso, they're being fairly consistent with what it can do unfortunately.

Since her inception: she was made to be equal in strength to Superman. No compromises, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with any fan of Wonder Woman, who has an expectation for Diana to deliver in the brute strength and skill categories ON PAR WITH SUPERMAN.

Marston has no say in how powerful Superman is in relation to Wonder Woman as that was not his property, and he unfortunately died before being able to usher her into the Silver Age where she may have had a fighting chance at relevance instead of being cast into a crappy romance comic disguised as a superhero one. But the source material has remained fairly consistent since then, and that is that Kryptonians (including females like Kara and Faora) are at the top of the food chain in terms of raw power.

Being able to fly and hit as hard as Superman does not automatically a good Wonder Woman make. DCAU Wonder Woman could do both those things and she was awful as a representation of the character (and her world in general was disrespected). That's not a problem with this version, especially in her solo.

[BiteTheBullet]

Maybe he wasn't, but it got him away from Batman (so she accomplished her goal). And how much long term pain/damage did Superman do in that fight? Wonder Woman was dealing more consistent damage throughout the battle because she's fresh for the fight and has way more experience as a warrior, slicing up his leg and chopping off his hand (causing him visible pain) and the incredibly weakened Superman wouldn't have been able to deliver the killing blow if Wonder Woman wasn't restraining him with the lasso (along with Batman's Kryptonite grenade). There is also the fact that Batman would have been DEAD and likely Superman wouldn't have been able to survive on his own in his weakened state if Wonder Woman hadn't shown up to help and contribute in the team-based battle.

And seeing as how she was the only runaway success from that movie that audiences loved, it's evident that no problem actually exists. Wonder Woman fans are like the only ones who don't have anything to complain about as far as the DCEU is concerned.



Which is something I always find super lame. But if the filmmaker's went with the post-Crisis lasso, they're being fairly consistent with what it can do unfortunately.



Marston has no say in how powerful Superman is in relation to Wonder Woman as that was not his property, and he unfortunately died before being able to usher her into the Silver Age where she may have had a fighting chance at relevance instead of being cast into a crappy romance comic disguised as a superhero one. But the source material has remained fairly consistent since then, and that is that Kryptonians (including females like Kara and Faora) are at the top of the food chain in terms of raw power.

Being able to fly and hit as hard as Superman does not automatically a good Wonder Woman make. DCAU Wonder Woman could do both those things and she was awful as a representation of the character (and her world in general was disrespected). That's not a problem with this version, especially in her solo.

After jobbing out to Super and SW in the most recent movie, I would say that their are Wonder Woman fans that now have a problem with her in the DCEU.

She can be effective against Doomsday, but basically job herself out to SW? What an awesome melee fighter she is! She can shine against normals at the beginning of the movie, and then forgets she has superspeed later on?