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  1. #1
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    Default SPOILERS Wonder Woman in Justice League SPOILERS

    I hope it was okay to start this new thread.

    ***



    SPOILERS



    ***


    I just saw Justice League at a preview screening down under.

    I was a little disappointed in the showing for the Amazons, but they did get a decent amount of screen time in a present day extended action sequence / scene, so it was good to see them again, especially Queen Hippolyta.

    The costumes did seem a little skimpier, even though they’re all apparently dressed for battle in armour because they’re expecting something bad to happen and must defend the Mother Box.

    A number of Amazons are slaughtered like cannon fodder and unfortunately Menalippe seems to be a casualty. It’s possible that she survives, but I’m pretty sure she is dead. Hippolyta thankfully survives.

    The Amazons are present in the flashback, but it’s a messy, dark scene so there isn’t too much to see. They’re joined by Zeus and I think Ares and Artemis in helping to stop Steppenwolf’s original attack. The Greek gods are all presented as being very big, maybe 9 feet tall or more. So, I’m not sure how Diana was made the old fashioned way! That typed, SW does refer to Diana having the blood of the gods, which indicates a biological connection to Zeus. Or it could just be a product if the fact that she was created by Zeus through other means. He first recognises her as being an Amazon and then determines that she’s a goddess / demigoddess.

    Diana has an awesome opening scene where she foils a terrorist attack. She accomplishes a lot in 13 or so seconds and it’s a pretty wonderful scene. There’s also some impressive leaping / levitation involved. Diana also shows herself to be extremely capable, sneaking into the Batcave, detecting “spies”, inspiring others and more than holding her own when battling SW at various points in time. And she’s never shown injured in any way - even her hair always remains perfect.

    But, as to be expected, she’s kind of presented as being weaker than Superman. At the same time, during their one on one encounter, it’s highly possible that she’s holding back. And she’s still pretty gosh darn powerful - easily the strongest out,of the remaining members. Diana does play an important role in forming the team, inspiring the team, eventually leading the team and in helping to defeat SW. She uses the sword a lot, but the lasso is also well used. No particularly cool stunts or effects with the lasso though, except for one comedic moment. I guess they’re saving them for the sequel.

    Diana’s story is about accepting leadership and embracing being a public superhero. Diana confirms that she never stopped fighting battles when needed, BUT she avoided the spotlight and did NOT want the responsibility of leading a team because she didn’t want to be responsible for the deaths of any others like Steve Trevor. It’s not the best story arc, but it’s decent enough and fits with DoJ and Wonder Woman to the extent possible.

    A final scene shows her capturing a gang of museum thieves, including a well dressed woman (maybe a Priscilla Rich version of Cheetah or Catwoman) and happily meeting some children at the museum. It’s clear that she’s now happily a public superhero and to serve as a source of inspiration (as Bruce encourages her to do).

    At one point, perhaps in a new scene, she gets a cool addition to her costume, but it appears and disappears for no reason. I wouldn’t mind seeing it return, possibly in another colour though - blue instead of red.

    I think Wonder Woman fans will be mostly happy. It’s a team film, so Diana can’t take the spotlight all of the time. And Bruce says some pretty crappy things at one point in his attempts to push Diana to assume a leadership role within the team and to unleash her full powers (or at least he seemed to imply that she was holding back, but they never really picked up on that aspect again). I thought they were toying with a “unleash the god” type power which Diana is reluctant to do out of fear of losing her humanity of hurting others, but it didn’t happen. Maybe it was cut from her storyline? Or maybe I just misinterpreted what Bruce was implying.

    I didn’t pick up on any sexual tension between Bruce and Diana. They’re somewhat close, but I didn’t get any romantic vibes. Others may disagree.

    All in all, I’m pretty happy. I don’t think they made Diana look bad and, together with the Flash, she was the highlight of the film for me (although I may be bias).

    I also thought that Gal Gadot again acquitted herself very well in the role. There was only one line delivery which seemed forced / wooden and which could have perhaps used a second, more subtle version. I certainly don’t think that this film will hurt the popularity of the character.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent 86 View Post
    I hope it was okay to start this new thread.

    ***



    SPOILERS



    ***


    I just saw Justice League at a preview screening down under.

    I was a little disappointed in the showing for the Amazons, but they did get a decent amount of screen time in a present day extended action sequence / scene, so it was good to see them again, especially Queen Hippolyta.

    The costumes did seem a little skimpier, even though they’re all apparently dressed for battle in armour because they’re expecting something bad to happen and must defend the Mother Box.

    A number of Amazons are slaughtered like cannon fodder and unfortunately Menalippe seems to be a casualty. It’s possible that she survives, but I’m pretty sure she is dead. Hippolyta thankfully survives.

    The Amazons are present in the flashback, but it’s a messy, dark scene so there isn’t too much to see. They’re joined by Zeus and I think Ares and Artemis in helping to stop Steppenwolf’s original attack. The Greek gods are all presented as being very big, maybe 9 feet tall or more. So, I’m not sure how Diana was made the old fashioned way! That typed, SW does refer to Diana having the blood of the gods, which indicates a biological connection to Zeus. Or it could just be a product if the fact that she was created by Zeus through other means. He first recognises her as being an Amazon and then determines that she’s a goddess / demigoddess.

    Diana has an awesome opening scene where she foils a terrorist attack. She accomplishes a lot in 13 or so seconds and it’s a pretty wonderful scene. There’s also some impressive leaping / levitation involved. Diana also shows herself to be extremely capable, sneaking into the Batcave, detecting “spies”, inspiring others and more than holding her own when battling SW at various points in time. And she’s never shown injured in any way - even her hair always remains perfect.

    But, as to be expected, she’s kind of presented as being weaker than Superman. At the same time, during their one on one encounter, it’s highly possible that she’s holding back. And she’s still pretty gosh darn powerful - easily the strongest out,of the remaining members. Diana does play an important role in forming the team, inspiring the team, eventually leading the team and in helping to defeat SW. She uses the sword a lot, but the lasso is also well used. No particularly cool stunts or effects with the lasso though, except for one comedic moment. I guess they’re saving them for the sequel.

    Diana’s story is about accepting leadership and embracing being a public superhero. Diana confirms that she never stopped fighting battles when needed, BUT she avoided the spotlight and did NOT want the responsibility of leading a team because she didn’t want to be responsible for the deaths of any others like Steve Trevor. It’s not the best story arc, but it’s decent enough and fits with DoJ and Wonder Woman to the extent possible.

    A final scene shows her capturing a gang of museum thieves, including a well dressed woman (maybe a Priscilla Rich version of Cheetah or Catwoman) and happily meeting some children at the museum. It’s clear that she’s now happily a public superhero and to serve as a source of inspiration (as Bruce encourages her to do).

    At one point, perhaps in a new scene, she gets a cool addition to her costume, but it appears and disappears for no reason. I wouldn’t mind seeing it return, possibly in another colour though - blue instead of red.

    I think Wonder Woman fans will be mostly happy. It’s a team film, so Diana can’t take the spotlight all of the time. And Bruce says some pretty crappy things at one point in his attempts to push Diana to assume a leadership role within the team and to unleash her full powers (or at least he seemed to imply that she was holding back, but they never really picked up on that aspect again). I thought they were toying with a “unleash the god” type power which Diana is reluctant to do out of fear of losing her humanity of hurting others, but it didn’t happen. Maybe it was cut from her storyline? Or maybe I just misinterpreted what Bruce was implying.

    I didn’t pick up on any sexual tension between Bruce and Diana. They’re somewhat close, but I didn’t get any romantic vibes. Others may disagree.

    All in all, I’m pretty happy. I don’t think they made Diana look bad and, together with the Flash, she was the highlight of the film for me (although I may be bias).

    I also thought that Gal Gadot again acquitted herself very well in the role. There was only one line delivery which seemed forced / wooden and which could have perhaps used a second, more subtle version. I certainly don’t think that this film will hurt the popularity of the character.
    Quick question---Does she actually fly like Cyborg or Superman?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    Quick question---Does she actually fly like Cyborg or Superman?
    No. Definitely not. But, she has a moment where she leaps straight up into the air. It’s not filmed very well, but I’d say she leaps maybe 3 storeys straight up. At other times, it is heavily implied that she’s leaping great distances (i.e. shown at one height and then suddenly shown at a very different height). And she has no trouble “falling” from heights - always landing well as though it was a controlled fall.

    But, no flight. Not even levitation / flight like at the end of Wonder Woman. There was an implication from Bruce that she’s not using her full powers, but I may have misinterpreted the dialogue. Maybe he was just referring to her leadership skills and ability to inspire others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent 86 View Post
    No. Definitely not. But, she has a moment where she leaps straight up into the air. It’s not filmed very well, but I’d say she leaps maybe 3 storeys straight up. At other times, it is heavily implied that she’s leaping great distances (i.e. shown at one height and then suddenly shown at a very different height). And she has no trouble “falling” from heights - always landing well as though it was a controlled fall.

    But, no flight. Not even levitation / flight like at the end of Wonder Woman. There was an implication from Bruce that she’s not using her full powers, but I may have misinterpreted the dialogue. Maybe he was just referring to her leadership skills and ability to inspire others.
    I've also read where Steppenwolf states that she is nowhere near as powerful as the 'kryptonian'. Was this said? And is it still implied that Supes is by far the most powerful Justice Leaguer?

  5. #5
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    It's like in the comics, Superman is the most powerful overall, with each having their strengths.

    Superman is the strongest and a rival to Flash.
    Wonder Woman is the best fighter and a leader in battle.
    Batman is the best tactician and strength/weakness analyser.

    What is it with all the discussions relating to how strong Wonder Woman is compared to Superman on this forum? He's the physically most impressive being, and that's his entire point since the conception.

    If she's as strong/fast as him and the best fighter and also armed with unbreakable bracelets and magical lasso and unstoppable sword, what's the point? Might as well also give her a GL ring and utility belt.
    Last edited by GodofBoredom; 11-15-2017 at 07:22 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodofBoredom View Post
    It's like in the comics, Superman is the most powerful overall, with each having their strengths.

    Superman is the strongest and a rival to Flash.
    Wonder Woman is the best fighter and a leader in battle.
    Batman is the best tactician and strength/weakness analyser.

    What is it with all the discussions relating to how strong Wonder Woman is compared to Superman on this forum? He's the physically most impressive being, and that's his entire point since the conception.

    If she's as strong/fast as him and the best fighter and also armed with unbreakable bracelets and magical lasso and unstoppable sword, what's the point? Might as well also give her a GL ring and utility belt.
    Ahah so if I follow your logic, what’s the point of having the justice league at all when you have Superman who is the best at everything?

    Wonder Woman too was conceived to be the top dog, an alternative to Superman, just as powerful, just as strong, just as fast. What’s wrong with having her to be equally powerful as Superman?

    If that proves to be true, that will be a downer for me. And it would be stupid too after BvS and the WW solo movie.
    Wonder Woman can handle the god of war but cannot handle Superman? Come on!

    She was shown handling Doomsday even better than Superman could. And now she can’t defeat SW because Superman has to shine?

    What a huge bummer for me.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by enish View Post
    Ahah so if I follow your logic, what’s the point of having the justice league at all when you have Superman who is the best at everything?

    Wonder Woman too was conceived to be the top dog, an alternative to Superman, just as powerful, just as strong, just as fast. What’s wrong with having her to be equally powerful as Superman?

    If that proves to be true, that will be a downer for me. And it would be stupid too after BvS and the WW solo movie.
    Wonder Woman can handle the god of war but cannot handle Superman? Come on!

    She was shown handling Doomsday even better than Superman could. And now she can’t defeat SW because Superman has to shine?

    What a huge bummer for me.
    the point of the league is that superman cant be at multiple places at the same time, so yes he is the strongest, having shazam and ww as the most closest second, and as for the andling of doomsday she makes up for the slight lack of strenght by being highly trained and there is nothing wrong with that

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    So, it is only okay to respect the source material when it comes to Superman, but Wonder Woman's, who cares right?

    It's basically a nerfing party with her. She can't fly. She's not strong enough to kick a new god's arse while she was flawlessly able to defeat the god of war on her own. And she can't apparently win a headbutting context aganst Superman, just because?

    How about respecting the original intent of her creator, Marston, who wanted her to be just as powerful, as strong, as fast as Superman but with feminine qualities. She is a goddess, Kal el is only just a Kryptonian.She should a least be just as strong.
    In the comics, they are considered as equally powerful. In the featurettes, I believe it was Geoff Johns talking, while talking about the Trinity, they said that Batman was the human, Superman the alien and Wonder Woman was the god, and that it should tell us where she is on the power scale.

    Yet, we have none of that in the cinematic version? Come on!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by enish View Post
    So, it is only okay to respect the source material when it comes to Superman, but Wonder Woman's, who cares right?

    It's basically a nerfing party with her. She can't fly. She's not strong enough to kick a new god's arse while she was flawlessly able to defeat the god of war on her own. And she can't apparently win a headbutting context aganst Superman, just because?

    How about respecting the original intent of her creator, Marston, who wanted her to be just as powerful, as strong, as fast as Superman but with feminine qualities. She is a goddess, Kal el is only just a Kryptonian.She should a least be just as strong.
    In the comics, they are considered as equally powerful. In the featurettes, I believe it was Geoff Johns talking, while talking about the Trinity, they said that Batman was the human, Superman the alien and Wonder Woman was the god, and that it should tell us where she is on the power scale.

    Yet, we have none of that in the cinematic version? Come on!
    it is not the first nor the last time that ww or any other hero in the dc universe is physically weaker than superman, that is just the basis, and if we go by the intention of the creator, when ww was physically equal to superman he was only stronger than a locomotive, faster than a speeding bullet and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound

  10. #10
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    So you'd be okay with having WW physically just as fast, strong, and durable as Superman, while Superman gets to be as skilled as WW and tactically proficient? I don't think you'd necessarily like that trade off, either.

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    I wouldn’t mind as long as they are shown to be equals in every way.
    I’m not saying Supes has to be nerfed.
    I’m asking for WW not to be.

    Is that too much to ask? Apparently yes. That’s the standard in a hetero-patriarchal world like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enish View Post
    I wouldn’t mind as long as they are shown to be equals in every way.
    I’m not saying Supes has to be nerfed.
    I’m asking for WW not to be.

    Is that too much to ask? Apparently yes. That’s the standard in a hetero-patriarchal world like this.
    ...whut?
    (10char)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by enish View Post
    Is that too much to ask? Apparently yes. That’s the standard in a hetero-patriarchal world like this.
    Well, everyone on the team gets nerfed, except Batman who gets boosted because he otherwise would have no business on the team. WW is on par with Superman because while she might not have the same raw capacity, her combat skill is more refined, and in the DCEU at least, a lot smarter than he is.

    Personally, I'd be okay with making them more similar in skill set, but I think a lot of fans hate that and say, "Oh, WW is just a Superman clone with boobs," so they try to differentiate them. In nerdy terms, instead of making them like Ryu and Ken in SF2:WW, they're making them more like Ryu and Ken in SSF2T; that is, similar but clearly distinct. One's faster, one's flashier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    So you'd be okay with having WW physically just as fast, strong, and durable as Superman, while Superman gets to be as skilled as WW and tactically proficient? I don't think you'd necessarily like that trade off, either.
    He has other abilities that she doesn't, and vice versa. While he isn't as skilled and tactically proficient as she is, he does have the sensory and other abilities to match her. While she doesn't have those abilities to the degree he does, she has the skill and tactical abilities.

    The strength, speed and durability are where they come in dead center with each other at.

    I do wish they would have had an in story reason as to why she didn't go full Goddess on Steppenwolf and Clark. I mean, Clark I can understand...(However she probably should have just used the lasso on him, but then what would be the point of Lois being there)

    I'm also going to say maybe with the Motherboxes bringing him back, they might have supercharged him a bit. (I'm guessing, I haven't watched the movie yet.)
    Last edited by richalex; 11-15-2017 at 09:53 AM.
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    I think there's also a difference between Superman being ahead in strength and power....and being able to punk the entire League put together to the point where they're all superfluous in his presence.
    "You can't save the world alone"..? Apparently you can, if you're Superman, losers.

    And that's a vibe I got from the spoilers I read on another forum....which was uncomfortably happy to hear Superman "dominates" Wonder Woman. I'm hoping that's an exaggeration and it is clear Diana was holding back or whatever because that's a load of bulls**t, even if Superman is supposed to be the strongest one.
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