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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    People? If Diana can beat Steppenwolf all by herself, then there's no reason to bother with resurrecting Superman in this movie. The whole point is that the world needs him to come back. That point becomes meaningless if he rises out of his grave, only to see Diana standing over an already-defeated Steppenwolf.

    I haven't seen the movie yet, but there can be so many explanations why Superman did better against Steppenwolf than Diana will.

    1.) Simple, straightforward plot-induced power stats. It happens with every character. Superman's return is the important plot point, so the story demands that he be powerful enough to prove the point that the world needs him.

    2.) Diana may have been tired from fighting Parademons.

    3.) Maybe she couldn't commit to a full-on engagement with Steppenwolf because there were people nearby who might be harmed if she went all-out on him.

    4.) Richalex may be onto something that Superman's resurrection may have come with a temporary power-up.

    Another thing to remember? New Gods are generally considered to be more powerful than Old Gods. Heck, they were originally conceived as being more powerful than Superman himself. When Superman first met the New Gods, two generic New Genesis cops (not even major characters) smacked him around like he owed them money. Keep in mind? That was SILVER AGE Superman: the most ridiculously OP version of the character who ever existed.

    Again, I'll need to see the actual circumstances of Diana's battle with Steppenwolf before I can render a full judgment. But Diana not doing as well against Steppenwolf as Superman did is hardly evidence of her being nerfed. I remind you that SHE did better than HIM against Doomsday. You're going to see tradeoffs like that in any shared universe. It's just how it goes.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richalex View Post
    He has other abilities that she doesn't, and vice versa. While he isn't as skilled and tactically proficient as she is, he does have the sensory and other abilities to match her. While she doesn't have those abilities to the degree he does, she has the skill and tactical abilities.

    The strength, speed and durability are where they come in dead center with each other at.

    I do wish they would have had an in story reason as to why she didn't go full Goddess on Steppenwolf and Clark. I mean, Clark I can understand...(However she probably should have just used the lasso on him, but then what would be the point of Lois being there)

    I'm also going to say maybe with the Motherboxes bringing him back, they might have supercharged him a bit. (I'm guessing, i'm haven't watched the movie yet.)
    Interesting supercharge theory.

    Regarding the bold, you could say Superman has advantages in those categories, but those advantages are easier to nullify. Her bracers are better armor than anything he has. He also has vulnerability to Kryptonite, and he need yellow sunlight to stay charged, whereas there's no concrete on/off switch related to her powers.

  3. #18
    Incredible Member Agniwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Interesting supercharge theory.

    Regarding the bold, you could say Superman has advantages in those categories, but those advantages are easier to nullify. Her bracers are better armor than anything he has. He also has vulnerability to Kryptonite, and he need yellow sunlight to stay charged, whereas there's no concrete on/off switch related to her powers.
    maybe to make them equal ww could start by giving back things that take away her powers too, even to the point of being letal like kryptonite

    like if she gets bound in some way (nets also apply) making her vulnerable, or like fairies is they get struck by cold iron it is letal

  4. #19
    Still only crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    So you'd be okay with having WW physically just as fast, strong, and durable as Superman, while Superman gets to be as skilled as WW and tactically proficient? I don't think you'd necessarily like that trade off, either.
    Would that trade off also include Wondy having Supes ability to fly? You know, the power she has had for over 30+ years, but somehow doesn't anymore.

    Would that trade off also give her invulnerability, laser/heat vision, arctic breath? I'm probably missing a few powers, just so we can be fair about a trade off.

    She is a goddess, but apparently goddess'es are a dime a dozen next to a kryptonian.

  5. #20
    Fantastic Member enish's Avatar
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    With all the abilities Superman has, it would not take away anything from him if WW was actually shown to be just as strong and as fast as he is.

    Let him keep his x-ray vision, his artic breath, his laser beams, his solar flare and I don't know what else he has. I personally could not care less about those abilities.

    But just let Wonder Woman be the real powerhouse she is supposed to be. She is a goddess, for Gaia's sake, daughter of Zeus, king of the gods, creator of humanity and daughter of Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazons, a race of people who are not even human but something in between mankind and the gods.
    She's not supposed to be the generic barabian warrior woman that Xena is. She's all that but with the powers of a goddess. She should be second to no one in terms of raw power.

    Because where is the Wonder in Wonder Woman if she is second to everybody else in terms of abilities? Oh yea, the "wonder" is in I wonder where are my powers

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I don’t think that’s right we hear she is one of the strongest heroes and the greatest fighter in DC. Why can’t she be on the level of Superman? She should be able to stand on her with him. Her edge is her skills

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    Would that trade off also include Wondy having Supes ability to fly? You know, the power she has had for over 30+ years, but somehow doesn't anymore.

    Would that trade off also give her invulnerability, laser/heat vision, arctic breath? I'm probably missing a few powers, just so we can be fair about a trade off.

    She is a goddess, but apparently goddess'es are a dime a dozen next to a kryptonian.
    I have no defense of the movie's decision not to let her fly. I'm just saying for the sake of differentiating the flying bricks, generally speaking he's the raw power, and she's the skilled one (and in the DCEU's case, the smarter one, too).

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I have no defense of the movie's decision not to let her fly. I'm just saying for the sake of differentiating the flying bricks, generally speaking he's the raw power, and she's the skilled one (and in the DCEU's case, the smarter one, too).
    Don't forget the magic weapons that let her damage a creature Superman could barely slow down.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  9. #24
    Incredible Member Agniwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I don’t think that’s right we hear she is one of the strongest heroes and the greatest fighter in DC. Why can’t she be on the level of Superman? She should be able to stand on her with him. Her edge is her skills
    the problem is that everyboddy just want her to be stronger but have no weakness at all

    for all his mighty superman has plenty of achiles heels to keep threatening him, sometimes it is like villans go to the supermarket buy rice, meat and some kryptonite for flavoring, wereas ww has no weakness at all, this equality with double standarts smells like an excuse for superiority instead of balance to me

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent 86 View Post
    I hope it was okay to start this new thread.

    ***



    SPOILERS



    ***


    I just saw Justice League at a preview screening down under.

    I was a little disappointed in the showing for the Amazons, but they did get a decent amount of screen time in a present day extended action sequence / scene, so it was good to see them again, especially Queen Hippolyta.

    The costumes did seem a little skimpier, even though they’re all apparently dressed for battle in armour because they’re expecting something bad to happen and must defend the Mother Box.

    A number of Amazons are slaughtered like cannon fodder and unfortunately Menalippe seems to be a casualty. It’s possible that she survives, but I’m pretty sure she is dead. Hippolyta thankfully survives.

    The Amazons are present in the flashback, but it’s a messy, dark scene so there isn’t too much to see. They’re joined by Zeus and I think Ares and Artemis in helping to stop Steppenwolf’s original attack. The Greek gods are all presented as being very big, maybe 9 feet tall or more. So, I’m not sure how Diana was made the old fashioned way! That typed, SW does refer to Diana having the blood of the gods, which indicates a biological connection to Zeus. Or it could just be a product if the fact that she was created by Zeus through other means. He first recognises her as being an Amazon and then determines that she’s a goddess / demigoddess.

    Diana has an awesome opening scene where she foils a terrorist attack. She accomplishes a lot in 13 or so seconds and it’s a pretty wonderful scene. There’s also some impressive leaping / levitation involved. Diana also shows herself to be extremely capable, sneaking into the Batcave, detecting “spies”, inspiring others and more than holding her own when battling SW at various points in time. And she’s never shown injured in any way - even her hair always remains perfect.

    But, as to be expected, she’s kind of presented as being weaker than Superman. At the same time, during their one on one encounter, it’s highly possible that she’s holding back. And she’s still pretty gosh darn powerful - easily the strongest out,of the remaining members. Diana does play an important role in forming the team, inspiring the team, eventually leading the team and in helping to defeat SW. She uses the sword a lot, but the lasso is also well used. No particularly cool stunts or effects with the lasso though, except for one comedic moment. I guess they’re saving them for the sequel.

    Diana’s story is about accepting leadership and embracing being a public superhero. Diana confirms that she never stopped fighting battles when needed, BUT she avoided the spotlight and did NOT want the responsibility of leading a team because she didn’t want to be responsible for the deaths of any others like Steve Trevor. It’s not the best story arc, but it’s decent enough and fits with DoJ and Wonder Woman to the extent possible.

    A final scene shows her capturing a gang of museum thieves, including a well dressed woman (maybe a Priscilla Rich version of Cheetah or Catwoman) and happily meeting some children at the museum. It’s clear that she’s now happily a public superhero and to serve as a source of inspiration (as Bruce encourages her to do).

    At one point, perhaps in a new scene, she gets a cool addition to her costume, but it appears and disappears for no reason. I wouldn’t mind seeing it return, possibly in another colour though - blue instead of red.

    I think Wonder Woman fans will be mostly happy. It’s a team film, so Diana can’t take the spotlight all of the time. And Bruce says some pretty crappy things at one point in his attempts to push Diana to assume a leadership role within the team and to unleash her full powers (or at least he seemed to imply that she was holding back, but they never really picked up on that aspect again). I thought they were toying with a “unleash the god” type power which Diana is reluctant to do out of fear of losing her humanity of hurting others, but it didn’t happen. Maybe it was cut from her storyline? Or maybe I just misinterpreted what Bruce was implying.

    I didn’t pick up on any sexual tension between Bruce and Diana. They’re somewhat close, but I didn’t get any romantic vibes. Others may disagree.

    All in all, I’m pretty happy. I don’t think they made Diana look bad and, together with the Flash, she was the highlight of the film for me (although I may be bias).

    I also thought that Gal Gadot again acquitted herself very well in the role. There was only one line delivery which seemed forced / wooden and which could have perhaps used a second, more subtle version. I certainly don’t think that this film will hurt the popularity of the character.
    Wow, disappointing but highly unsurprising. She can hold her own with doomsday but gets flattened by Superman.
    Last edited by dianafan1985; 11-15-2017 at 11:09 AM.

  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dianafan1985 View Post
    Wow, disappointing but highly unsurprising. She can hold her own with doomsday but gets flattened by Superman.
    Aaaaand.....the fact that she was definitely going all-out on Doomsday and almost certainly holding back against Superman doesn't factor into this equation at all?

    If Diana does get beaten by Supes, it can easily be chalked up to attitude. Just ask Superman: if the other guy's bringing his "A" game, and you're forced to only bring your "B" or "C" game, that's usually a recipe for you losing. Badly.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  12. #27
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    Oh God, and here comes all the ridiculous illogical excuses for why Wonder Woman was nerfed. If Superman is the best at everything: strongest, handsomest, most ominpotent being in the universe then why does he need a league? The whole point of the movie, according to some, makes no sense. One has to wonder what was the whole point of the DCEU trying to establish her as a goddess, if she is in the same category as characters such as the cyborg.

  13. #28
    Incredible Member Agniwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dianafan1985 View Post
    Oh God, and here comes all the ridiculous illogical excuses for why Wonder Woman was nerfed. If Superman is the best at everything: strongest, handsomest, most ominpotent being in the universe then why does he need a league? The whole point of the movie, according to some, makes no sense. One has to wonder what was the whole point of the DCEU trying to establish her as a goddess, if she is in the same category as characters such as the cyborg.
    want the truth? superman gets nerfed for the sake of having the league and even if he is not nerfed he needs the league for the sake of being at multiple places at the same time, it is like redundancies of energy cables in a city, so if one fails the city still has energy through alternate routes

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agniwolf View Post
    want the truth? superman gets nerfed for the sake of having the league and even if he is not nerfed he needs the league for the sake of being at multiple places at the same time, it is like redundancies of energy cables in a city, so if one fails the city still has energy through alternate routes
    The league was never designed to be his back-up group while he sings lead. Unfortunately, not everyone (for e.g myself) is a fan of Superman; I am actually not seeing the movie to see him make paste out of everybody (especially when he shouldn't). Aquaman and Wonder Woman alone should be able to mince him up into tiny pieces. What about Shazam's eventual membership? Would he also be a pip sharing the stage with Gladys Knight? The Justice League is about a team of powerful and skillful creatures (including Batman). If Superman is the fastest, strongest, most skillful, he doesn't need to have a league, what he needs is a fan club.

    No wonder Marvel is awesome in comparison to this crap.

    LOL, and I have already bought the ticket... de-ja-vu... you would think my expectations of these films would be lowered by now.
    Last edited by dianafan1985; 11-15-2017 at 11:45 AM.

  15. #30
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    I really dont know if i care about this movie or not. Superman being the number 1 hero again despite all these years of failing to capture the public is very weird but i guess thats all his character has to fall back on as of late.
    Last edited by Lex Luthor; 11-15-2017 at 11:50 AM.

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