SPOILERS Wonder Woman in Justice League SPOILERS

[Vanguard-01]

The league was never designed to be his back-up group while he sings lead. FYI, not everyone (like myself) is a fan of Superman; I am actually not seeing the movie to see him make paste out of everybody (especially when he shouldn't). Aquaman and Wonder Woman alone should be able to mince him up into tiny pieces. What about Shazam? Is he also a pip? The Justice League is about a team of powerful and skillful creatures (including Batman). If Superman is the fastest, strongest, most skillful, he doesn't need to have a league, what he needs is a fan club.

No wonder Marvel is awesome in comparison to this crap.

LOL, and I have already bought the ticket... de-ja-vu... you would think my expectations of these films would be lowered by now.

Why the HECK would Diana and Arthur mince Superman up into tiny pieces? They're heroes, remember? They don't kill fellow heroes just because he lashed out at them in confusion, or whatever the circumstances behind this fight happen to be. It's called "holding back." And if the other guy isn't holding back, that tends to go badly for you.

Shazam? We'll have to see how he does. Historically, he's been on Superman's level.

And Superman has NEVER been portrayed as the most skillful member of the League, so I don't know where you're getting that.

Context matters here. If Superman beats the entire League, it's almost certainly because he was playing for keeps and they weren't. If he beats Steppenwolf with absolutely zero assistance from the rest of the League? That'll be a problem, but there's no evidence yet that that is the case.

EVERY comic character gets "nerfed" for the purpose of story. Superman is like the KING of plot-related nerfing, in fact. If Diana has one moment of not looking like the most awesome character in the movie, that's hardly an insult to her. It's just the way comics stories go.

[dianafan1985]

I wouldn’t mind as long as they are shown to be equals in every way.
I’m not saying Supes has to be nerfed.
I’m asking for WW not to be.

Is that too much to ask? Apparently yes. That’s the standard in a hetero-patriarchal world like this.

You said it best.

[Shadowedeyes]

Haven't seen the movie myself yet, so I'll hold off judgement on that for now. I do however, want to comment on something that has been at the back of my mind for awhile.

it seems rather constant that fans, and creators even, describe Wonder Woman as the "best fighter." In some cases, they use it as an argument on why they think Superman should be physically stronger/more powerful. But if Superman is powerful enough to beat the entire league, can we really say she's the "best fighter?" What does that even mean if someone is so much more powerful that you can't you know, beat them in a fight?

[Lex Luthor]

Haven't seen the movie myself yet, so I'll hold off judgement on that for now. I do however, want to comment on something that has been at the back of my mind for awhile.

it seems rather constant that fans, and creators even, describe Wonder Woman as the "best fighter." In some cases, they use it as an argument on why they think Superman should be physically stronger/more powerful. But if Superman is powerful enough to beat the entire league, can we really say she's the "best fighter?" What does that even mean if someone is so much more powerful that you can't you know, beat them in a fight?

It means she's more skilled and studied than he is in fighting but he has advantageous over her in raw power

[Shadowedeyes]

But what does that mean exactly? It sounds nice but unless it is actually helpful it's a lot of nothing. You can't be the best at fighting if you're not actually winning fights.

[Vanguard-01]

Haven't seen the movie myself yet, so I'll hold off judgement on that for now. I do however, want to comment on something that has been at the back of my mind for awhile.

it seems rather constant that fans, and creators even, describe Wonder Woman as the "best fighter." In some cases, they use it as an argument on why they think Superman should be physically stronger/more powerful. But if Superman is powerful enough to beat the entire league, can we really say she's the "best fighter?" What does that even mean if someone is so much more powerful that you can't you know, beat them in a fight?

Batman seems to manage it just fine.

Being stronger does not guarantee you victory in a fight. A skilled opponent can avoid your strikes and/or turn your strength against you. There are entire martial arts designed around the concept of "You're fighting someone who is bigger and stronger than you."

Even if Diana isn't as powerful as Superman, she's powerful enough that she can hurt him in a fight. By using her skill and fighting SMART, she can counter that superior power and win the fight. Case in point? The Sacrifice fight. Make no mistake: Diana WON that fight. She had Clark down and at her mercy. If she'd been fighting him to the death, she could've easily finished him off. She didn't do that by hitting him harder than he was hitting her. She did it by being smart and using her abilities to counter his.

[Agniwolf]

Batman seems to manage it just fine.

Being stronger does not guarantee you victory in a fight. A skilled opponent can avoid your strikes and/or turn your strength against you. There are entire martial arts designed around the concept of "You're fighting someone who is bigger and stronger than you."

Even if Diana isn't as powerful as Superman, she's powerful enough that she can hurt him in a fight. By using her skill and fighting SMART, she can counter that superior power and win the fight. Case in point? The Sacrifice fight. Make no mistake: Diana WON that fight. She had Clark down and at her mercy. If she'd been fighting him to the death, she could've easily finished him off. She didn't do that by hitting him harder than he was hitting her. She did it by being smart and using her abilities to counter his.

we are evil hetero-patriarchal so of course that part must be because he allowed her to do so /sarc

[Lex Luthor]

But what does that mean exactly? It sounds nice but unless it is actually helpful it's a lot of nothing. You can't be the best at fighting if you're not actually winning fights.

Yeah you can. If you are a skilled fighter you're skilled because of how you fight and the techniques you use not because of how much you can pick up which is why trained women fighters can beat up untrained men despite not being as strong as them or fight on par with them. In this case tho Diana is being nerfed, just like everyone else, so Superman can have a niche in the group despite her being just as strong as him

[Sacred Knight]

Superman is in one-quarter of this movie. Meanwhile Wonder Woman's entire character arc revolves around her becoming leader of the team. Where the hell are people getting that Superman is the lead? Just because he's portrayed as physically stronger than her? He's been physically stronger than her for over 70 years. This is nothing new.

[AmiMizuno]

We have many writers and staff saying Diana is as strong as Superman and yet they keep her in this weir dof second best. Why can’t she be on equal terms with him? She is the most powerful female hero in Dc. Even Marston wanted her in the same ballpark as h but with a whole different way of being that. Why can’t she be on equal terms? That like Superman she is just holding back. We keep getting messed messages. Heck even in new 52 we see Batman suggesting Superman and Wonder Woman are equal terms

[Sacred Knight]

Some creators say that usually just to avoid people freaking out about the fact that Superman is somewhat stronger and always has been. Because in reality it really doesn't matter all that much. Its not that large a gap, its only a "when push comes to shove" type of deal where it ever really matters, and it only comes up occasionally. But when it does fans flip out. i.e. this thread.

And I'm far from a DECU apologist. I'm not even sure when I'm going to get around to seeing the movie, I'm just not that into it. But there's absolutely zero wrong with portraying Superman as the physically strongest member of the group when each member including WW clearly have their places of expertise as well.

[Shadowedeyes]

I get what people are saying. My question probably is better expressed as how can being a better fighter be usefully expressed in story? Because I've read quite a few comics, including Justice League, and there has not often been a situation where I'm thinking "You know, Wonder Woman is the character that could best handle this situation." Part of this might be the fact that 9 times out of 10, Wonder Woman basically just punches and kicks like every other superhero in existence.

Vanguard also brought up 2 points I want to address. First, Batman. He's weaker physically than other characters but usually is shown to pull his weight with tactical planning, and some really impressive gadgets. Wonder Woman doesn't have the utility belt excuse, and although we're told she's tactically minded, she rarely gets to show it because that would be making Batman superfluous. So she ends up doing the same thing Superman does, punching stuff. And sometimes pulling out a sword or using her lasso.

The second is the Sacrifice fight. Besides some weird oddities with that fight(the bird part?) Wonder Woman wins the fight pretty much out of nowhere at the end after literally getting destroyed by Superman throughout the fight. Throw in the mind control stuff and it becomes really tough for me to consider that a great Wonder Woman showing.

[BiteTheBullet]

Batman seems to manage it just fine.

Being stronger does not guarantee you victory in a fight. A skilled opponent can avoid your strikes and/or turn your strength against you. There are entire martial arts designed around the concept of "You're fighting someone who is bigger and stronger than you."

Even if Diana isn't as powerful as Superman, she's powerful enough that she can hurt him in a fight. By using her skill and fighting SMART, she can counter that superior power and win the fight. Case in point? The Sacrifice fight. Make no mistake: Diana WON that fight. She had Clark down and at her mercy. If she'd been fighting him to the death, she could've easily finished him off. She didn't do that by hitting him harder than he was hitting her. She did it by being smart and using her abilities to counter his.

Diana could also fly in that scenario! It is not apples to apples that you are arguing about. We are talking about the DCEU, not the comic world in this thread

[Lex Luthor]

Some creators say that usually just to avoid people freaking out about the fact that Superman is somewhat stronger and always has been. Because in reality it really doesn't matter all that much. Its not that large a gap, its only a "when push comes to shove" type of deal where it ever really matters, and it only comes up occasionally. But when it does fans flip out. i.e. this thread.

No it was said by her creator not just writers trying to make people feel better

[Sacred Knight]

I'm talking about what has been the norm for the greater part of DC's existence. Marston may have intended a complete on par physical strength scenario but its just simply never been the norm. When creators say it today, they're obviously fibbing.

Now, that's not to say that for a long time WW didn't have much else to hang her hat on. She didn't, she's been grossly misused for the bulk of her existence. I understand that. But looking at this incarnation of the character, the one Gal Gadot plays, I'm not seeing any reason for anyone to take offense. She is THE star right now. And I'm glad she is, she deserves this push. Superman's had many decades as top dog. Batman's currently enjoying that role. This is the first time WW has had this kind of reputation, arguably even moreso right now than the Lynda Carter days. But its odd to me that instead of enjoying it people are insisting on being bad that she had a tough time with a confused and scared resurrected Superman.