SPOILERS Wonder Woman in Justice League SPOILERS

[BiteTheBullet]

want the truth? superman gets nerfed for the sake of having the league and even if he is not nerfed he needs the league for the sake of being at multiple places at the same time, it is like redundancies of energy cables in a city, so if one fails the city still has energy through alternate routes

Besides Kryptonite, which is just a plot device to give Superman a weakness whenever it is convenient, tell me how Superman is in any way nerfed in the DCEU?

[Lex Luthor]

I get what people are saying. My question probably is better expressed as how can being a better fighter be usefully expressed in story? Because I've read quite a few comics, including Justice League, and there has not often been a situation where I'm thinking "You know, Wonder Woman is the character that could best handle this situation." Part of this might be the fact that 9 times out of 10, Wonder Woman basically just punches and kicks like every other superhero in existence.

Vanguard also brought up 2 points I want to address. First, Batman. He's weaker physically than other characters but usually is shown to pull his weight with tactical planning, and some really impressive gadgets. Wonder Woman doesn't have the utility belt excuse, and although we're told she's tactically minded, she rarely gets to show it because that would be making Batman superfluous. So she ends up doing the same thing Superman does, punching stuff. And sometimes pulling out a sword or using her lasso.

The second is the Sacrifice fight. Besides some weird oddities with that fight(the bird part?) Wonder Woman wins the fight pretty much out of nowhere at the end after literally getting destroyed by Superman throughout the fight. Throw in the mind control stuff and it becomes really tough for me to consider that a great Wonder Woman showing.

Having her fight groups of people usually proves it well like when she fought The Circle or those gorillas in the issue before or when she fought The female furies. I don't read the JL book for that exact reason you mentioned. They never write her well.

[Lex Luthor]

I'm talking about what has been the norm for the greater part of DC's existence. Marston may have intended a complete on par physical strength scenario but its just simply never been the norm. When creators say it today, they're obviously fibbing.

No I think it depends on who because she has been shown to be on his level plenty of times. Some say it to humor fans I'm sure just like they use the "best fighter" thing to humor fans too

[Sacred Knight]

She IS on his level. There's a difference between being on the level and technicality. The technicality is that Superman is a bit stronger. And that's what I mean when I say its not really that important as technicalities only mean anything every once in a while. Case in point, her going against a recently resurrected Superman who's completely confused and as a result incredibly defensive. Doesn't mean she's not on the level.

[Lex Luthor]

She IS on his level. There's a difference between being on the level and technicality. The technicality is that Superman is a bit stronger. Doesn't mean she's not on the level.

I'm not buying that writers write her "on his level and he's just a bit stronger than her" because I can't recall that in any stories I've read. There difference is usually huge enough to always be a significant problem for her in the story or they are equal.

[Marik Swift]

ITT: Wonder fans once again passing off wanting Wonder Woman to remain more skilled than Superman, while also being as strong, as equality.

[Vanguard-01]

I get what people are saying. My question probably is better expressed as how can being a better fighter be usefully expressed in story? Because I've read quite a few comics, including Justice League, and there has not often been a situation where I'm thinking "You know, Wonder Woman is the character that could best handle this situation." Part of this might be the fact that 9 times out of 10, Wonder Woman basically just punches and kicks like every other superhero in existence.

True. It would be nice if Justice League stories featured more diplomatic solutions to problems so Diana could show off her peacemaker status.

And as far as I'm concerned, Diana should be the chief strategist of the JL. Not Batman. None of Batman's concepts revolve around him being a master of warfare. That was a later addition to his skill set after TDKR got popular. Diana, on the other hand, has been trained in the arts of war from childhood. It makes much more sense for her to be the expert in the League's small-unit tactics over Batman.

Vanguard also brought up 2 points I want to address. First, Batman. He's weaker physically than other characters but usually is shown to pull his weight with tactical planning, and some really impressive gadgets. Wonder Woman doesn't have the utility belt excuse, and although we're told she's tactically minded, she rarely gets to show it because that would be making Batman superfluous. So she ends up doing the same thing Superman does, punching stuff. And sometimes pulling out a sword or using her lasso.

Diana could have her own "utility belt" of sorts by having and using a variety of magical artifacts. That's another thing I would change about Diana if I were writing Justice League. Diana's meant to be kind of a halfway point between Superman and Batman, so it would be cool if she could do a little bit of everything that they can do.

The second is the Sacrifice fight. Besides some weird oddities with that fight(the bird part?) Wonder Woman wins the fight pretty much out of nowhere at the end after literally getting destroyed by Superman throughout the fight. Throw in the mind control stuff and it becomes really tough for me to consider that a great Wonder Woman showing.

The "bird part" was her invoking her largely ignored power of being able to communicate with animals. It's definitely a thing she can do, most writers just ignore it.

And she wasn't "getting destroyed." She was giving about as good as she was getting. She got her wrist broken, sure, but she was knocking him around pretty well as well. And then there was that whole thing where she banged her bracelets together to mess with his super-hearing. THAT'S what we're talking about when we talk about "fighting smart."

The "mind control stuff" was actually an advantage for Superman, not Diana. Max Lord had Superman thinking that Diana was Doomsday and that she had just murdered Lois. That was Diana going up against a Superman who genuinely believed he was fighting arguably his deadliest foe ever. He wasn't holding back. He can't afford to hold back against Doomsday. Furthermore, he was ANGRY and was actually TRYING to kill "Doomsday."

So, Diana, while holding back (SHE didn't want to hurt Clark at all, after all,) was able to beat a Superman who was using NONE of his typical level of restraint. She took him on at his absolute most dangerous and she still beat him definitively.

[BiteTheBullet]

ITT: Wonder fans once again passing off wanting Wonder Woman to remain more skilled than Superman, while also being as strong, as equality.

Wonder Woman fans want Wonder Woman to be well......Wonder Woman. A skillful fighter with a full compliment of powers that includes strength (not quite as strong as Superman), speed, flight and her various artifacts like the tiara and lasso. That is all.

What we are getting is a stronger version of Xena that has lost the power of flight and apparently can beat a god, Ares, but gets trounced by Steppenwolf. I am not sure we are getting the necessarily skilled fighter part since I have seen no evidence that she is any better at fighting than Batman or any other street fighter superhero. If she had no powers, would she be the most skillful of the street fighters, or is it just lip service?

They definitely need to convey her superior skills at fighting by being more unique than what we have seen on screen. Batman certainly did his part in the BvS movie in the warehouse scene.

[Shadowedeyes]

The oddity for wasn't the communicate with animals thing, it was the fact that ordinary birds somehow were distracting Superman. The Doomsday thing is kinda both ways. Yes, he wasn't holding back. He also thought he was fighting Doomsday, and would be making decisions based on that fact. Which could be used to handwave the win, since Doomsday doesn't have access to magical throwing weapons. The bracers thing is a pretty decent example though, even if the effect sonics have on Superman tends to be inconsistent.

The magical artifacts thing just kinda reinforces the fact that she really doesn't have a shtick like the other big seven leaguers.

[AmiMizuno]

https://www.cbr.com/times-wonder-wom...tled-superman/


Diana has been able to fight against Superman with equal strength.

[Marik Swift]

Wonder Woman fans want Wonder Woman to be well......Wonder Woman. A skillful fighter with a full compliment of powers that includes strength (not quite as strong as Superman), speed, flight and her various artifacts like the tiara and lasso. That is all.

What we are getting is a stronger version of Xena that has lost the power of flight and apparently can beat a god, Ares, but gets trounced by Steppenwolf. I am not sure we are getting the necessarily skilled fighter part since I have seen no evidence that she is any better at fighting than Batman or any other street fighter superhero. If she had no powers, would she be the most skillful of the street fighters, or is it just lip service?

They definitely need to convey her superior skills at fighting by being more unique than what we have seen on screen. Batman certainly did his part in the BvS movie in the warehouse scene.

I'm a Wonder fan, so trust me I want the same thing. I more than anyone want to see Marston's invisionment for the character honored, particularly by giving her back her genius intellect (not wisdom, but actually intellect).

So yea, I get what you are saying about her skill, but the repetitive Superman-Wonder Woman debate here is just beyond whiny. As a Wonder fan, I've long ago accepted that her skill will never be fully showcased at her powerlevel. That said, I appreciate what I can about her, because I know Superman fans, and other fandoms, have things they complain about just the same. I'm glad she got s better showing in BvS than Superman, I'm glad she's being pushed as the League's leader, I'm glad she isn't being pushed as Bruce or Clark's arm candy, I'm glad.

I mean, I probably have the most to complain about, cause I still hate Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, I found the WW movie to be overrated and nowadays I insta-drop any story where Diana is shown as a sword wielding Xena.

And you may see that as settling, but I see that as accepting that the world isn't catered to me, and thar there's going to be things I like and things I don't. I hate mostly everything they are doing with Wonder Woman & the Wonder family in general right now, but I have her older stories, Earth-One by Morrison & Marston & the Wonder Woman to look forward to at least.

[BiteTheBullet]

I'm a Wonder fan, so trust me I want the same thing. I more than anyone want to see Marston's invisionment for the character honored, particularly by giving her back her genius intellect (not wisdom, but actually intellect).

So yea, I get what you are saying about her skill, but the repetitive Superman-Wonder Woman debate here is just beyond whiny. As a Wonder fan, I've long ago accepted that her skill will never be fully showcased at her powerlevel. That said, I appreciate what I can about her, because I know Superman fans, and other fandoms, have things they complain about just the same. I'm glad she got s better showing in BvS than Superman, I'm glad she's being pushed as the League's leader, I'm glad she isn't being pushed as Bruce or Clark's arm candy, I'm glad.

I mean, I probably have the most to complain about, cause I still hate Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, I found the WW movie to be overrated and nowadays I insta-drop any story where Diana is shown as a sword wielding Xena.

And you may see that as settling, but I see that as accepting that the world isn't catered to me, and thar there's going to be things I like and things I don't. I hate mostly everything they are doing with Wonder Woman & the Wonder family in general right now, but I have her older stories, Earth-One by Morrison & Marston & the Wonder Woman to look forward to at least.

I agree with alot of what you are saying. Despite my dislike for the casting of Gal Gadot, I still enjoyed the movie, by far the best of the DCEU movies. But again, I get aggravated by slights such as her loss of flight and the fact that she seems to be all about a sword and shield.

And I would love to see her full power using her skill in fighting and strength against a similar powered foe that is stronger and winning because of her superior fighting skills. I just don't want to see her take on a bunch of grunt/parademons and expect us to think she is some super skilled fighter, because I think that all the Justice Leaguers are going to be showcased in the same way---kicking a bunch of parademon ass with barely a sweat.

[Vanguard-01]

Wonder Woman fans want Wonder Woman to be well......Wonder Woman. A skillful fighter with a full compliment of powers that includes strength (not quite as strong as Superman), speed, flight and her various artifacts like the tiara and lasso. That is all.

You've got literally ALL of that except for the flying part, and that's coming.

What we are getting is a stronger version of Xena that has lost the power of flight and apparently can beat a god, Ares, but gets trounced by Steppenwolf. I am not sure we are getting the necessarily skilled fighter part since I have seen no evidence that she is any better at fighting than Batman or any other street fighter superhero. If she had no powers, would she be the most skillful of the street fighters, or is it just lip service?

First? You have no idea whether she gets "trounced."

Second? We've seen her fight skillfully plenty of times already. She completely dominated Doomsday every time they clashed. She also beat the God of War in single combat.

Third? Superman beat a Kryptonian soldier in one movie, only to be truly "trounced" in the next movie by a mere mortal with no powers. And Batman? Don't even get me started about THAT loser! The guy can beat down gods and demons in one book, only to have a devil of a time with a powerless clown in another!

Looks like the whole Trinity are a bunch of weaklings, eh?

[Vanguard-01]

The oddity for wasn't the communicate with animals thing, it was the fact that ordinary birds somehow were distracting Superman.

When a flock of noisy birds fly straight into your face, that tends to be distracting.

The Doomsday thing is kinda both ways. Yes, he wasn't holding back. He also thought he was fighting Doomsday, and would be making decisions based on that fact. Which could be used to handwave the win, since Doomsday doesn't have access to magical throwing weapons.

Means nothing. He thought he was fighting a creature that had killed him once before. He was NOT playing around. He was going for the kill with every, single, attack.

The bracers thing is a pretty decent example though, even if the effect sonics have on Superman tends to be inconsistent.

Nope. It's quite consistent. With his super-hearing, high-powered sonics are a real problem for him.

The magical artifacts thing just kinda reinforces the fact that she really doesn't have a shtick like the other big seven leaguers.

Well, making her as strong and as fast as Superman wouldn't change that either.

She's the teams magical expert, a masterful fighter, and she's powerful enough to slug it out with the biggest and baddest baddies in the DCU. If I had my way, she'd also be the teams master strategist and battlefield commander. That's enough.

[Agent 86]

I've also read where Steppenwolf states that she is nowhere near as powerful as the 'kryptonian'. Was this said? And is it still implied that Supes is by far the most powerful Justice Leaguer?

I don’t remember SW saying that. Superman is definitely presented as the most powerful member. But, Diana is a close second. And then Aquaman is a distant third.