Mighty Thor #701 *Spoliers*

[JKtheMac]

Well if we do then I'll reevaluate. I am a little skeptical though unlike Mjolnir which I expect to be revisited at some point.

Well I tend to agree, but I do wonder if ultimately Mangog is a physical representation of Odin's hubris, and I suspect it is inevitable that one day a writer will explore that. Just maybe Aaron will do so in passing.

[pugbuddy]

I wonder, from your description of putting the book back on the rack how much of this you have actually read. This run has had hundreds of moments to please and enthuse the long term Thor fan, and I really hope your refusal is not based upon hype and other people's cynicism. If you read a significant part and your opinions are genuinely based upon the story not being for you, then you are right to save your money. Otherwise, this may be one of those titles you return to in years to come and wonder why you didn't read it today.

If you do have a small stack of the run I would encourage you to reread them with a mindset that includes how this is a Simonson, Kirby and Lee tribute book, and you might find yourself changing your mind. If not, nothing lost.

Well, no. I have read the majority of it (I cannot say "all in" honesty) and I recognize that Aaron is "telling a solid story". I will not agree that it is a "good" story as I don't care for how he treats the main character, Thor (Odinson, as he puts it). I'm not a fan of Jane but then I'm not a fan of anyone else wielding Mjolnir and "becoming Thor". I liked the Simonson Beta Ray Bill stories quite a lot as they were extremely original at the time. After that though, it was like every Tom, Dick, and Harry was picking up Mjolnir or seemed to be about to do so. So I'm not fond of the "Hey I'm Thor now!" stories that Marvel seems to like to tell (they did the same thing with Loeb's Hulk; it became "everyone is a Hulk now!"). Aaron is a good writer, generally speaking, and I've found several issues quite entertaining, but the overall story-line is not to my liking and the characterizations are, for the most part, off (to me).

I don't see this as a tribute to the authors of yore either; I've often thought that, if the "God Butcher" arc had been written by Lee or Simonson or Kirby, Thor would never be swayed by Gor's words. He has (in the past) always recognized the nobility and wisdom of Odin and the Asgardians (even when he and Odin had differences), as well as others such as Zeus, et. al. There are unworthy gods, no doubt, but Thor would never (in the past) flat out state that all of the gods are unworthy--that's Aaron's take only. Overall, he's presented such a huge departure from the past characterizations of Thor that I cannot get on board with the current story; the foundational idea(s), in my view, are rotten. However, I have no issue with others enjoying the book. But I look forward to when he is no longer writing it.

[JKtheMac]

I don't see this as a tribute to the authors of yore either; I've often thought that, if the "God Butcher" arc had been written by Lee or Simonson or Kirby, Thor would never be swayed by Gor's words. He has (in the past) always recognized the nobility and wisdom of Odin and the Asgardians (even when he and Odin had differences), as well as others such as Zeus, et. al. There are unworthy gods, no doubt, but Thor would never (in the past) flat out state that all of the gods are unworthy--that's Aaron's take only. Overall, he's presented such a huge departure from the past characterizations of Thor that I cannot get on board with the current story; the foundational idea(s), in my view, are rotten. However, I have no issue with others enjoying the book. But I look forward to when he is no longer writing it.

Thor wasn't swayed by Gor's words he learned that they were true. There is a big difference.

[The tall man]

This whole worthy/unworthy storyline falls flat for me. What exactly is the point of being worthy, why would that mindset affect Thor one way or the other? Some say it's because of his relationship with humans/Midgard but Thor and the Asgardians in general are not seeking worship from mortals. So what is the point of it all. No one is looking to the Norse Gods in early 21st century MU for inspiration, divine guidance or salvation. The notion that the opinion of some vanquished foe, a mass murderer is going to break Thor's heroic and noble spirit lacks credibility. The only unworthy thing I see here is this whole storyline.

[JKtheMac]

This whole worthy/unworthy storyline falls flat for me. What exactly is the point of being worthy, why would that mindset affect Thor one way or the other? Some say it's because of his relationship with humans/Midgard but Thor and the Asgardians in general are not seeking worship from mortals. So what is the point of it all. No one is looking to the Norse Gods in early 21st century MU for inspiration, divine guidance or salvation. The notion that the opinion of some vanquished foe, a mass murderer is going to break Thor's heroic and noble spirit lacks credibility. The only unworthy thing I see here is this whole storyline.

Nobody is saying anyone is worshipping them. That is kind of the point don't you think? They are not relevant to mortals. How can one be a legitimate god when there is no relationship between mortals and gods? You have just turned the point on its head. One could equally rip apart the Spider-Man premise in the same way.

It may fall flat for you, but I find it strange that it falls flat for long term readers of a book about gods, because surely that is the point of a book about a god? With divine power comes divine responsibility.

[The tall man]

Nobody is saying anyone is worshipping them. That is kind of the point don't you think? They are not relevant to mortals. How can one be a legitimate god when there is no relationship between mortals and gods? You have just turned the point on its head. One could equally rip apart the Spider-Man premise in the same way.

It may fall flat for you, but I find it strange that it falls flat for long term readers of a book about gods, because surely that is the point of a book about a god? With divine power comes divine responsibility.

The way I see it is there is no relevent relationship between the Asgardian "Gods" and mortals because neither side is interested in having a relationship. They are not dependent upon each other. Mortals for the most part have moved beyond the concept of God's while the Asgardians in turn (minus a few individuals) rearly interact with with them. Besides are the Asgardians truly "Gods" in the divine sense or are they an extremely long lived advanced alien race? Further, the "Gods" don't have any responsibility for mortals, they may choose to assist/aid or intercede on behalf of mortals but are not obligated to do so by any means. Thor choose to fight for mortals and Midgard of his own free will, he did not have to and I don't see why being "worthy" should play a part in that free decision or why it would affect his ability to wield his hammer. (Aside from some never before known about mother storm that is&#128533 How many humans believed that Thor was actually mythological Thor when he was with the Avengers? How many now think that Jane Thor is the Thor of myth, I reckon none do. So if mortals don't give a damm about the Gods and their lives as a whole is in no way dependant or reliant on God's then why should the Gods be dependent or reliant on mortals? Humans don't expect their (super)heroes to be worthy when they come to save them, they just to be saved. Likewise being worthy in the eyes of mortals should not matter when Thor is fighting on behalf of mortals/Midgard. And on the chance that Gor was right when he said that all Gods are unworthy in the eyes of mortals, then so what! If mortals don't acknowledge "Gods" as true Gods, if they don't pray, worship or sacrifice in the name of said Gods then what difference does it make whether they think Gods are unworthy. You can't not believe in something and think it unworthy. Fury saying Gor was right should have had absolutely no effect on Thor, but Arron wanted to tell his Jane story so here we are.

[JKtheMac]

Well the way the majority of us see it they are gods. Aaron also believes them to be gods, as do the editors. So we don't get to pick and choose what they are. Only the movies have suggested they are not and even then Ragnarok strongly drifts back towards them being gods.

The only question is what does being a god mean. Which is the premise of this run. If you can't engage with that as a premise maybe Thor isn't a book for you. It is something that has been explored multiple times in the canon in various ways.

For some of us Thor is at his most bland when he is like a normal superhero with no reference to mythology.

You are entirely wrong on Aaron's motives. Maybe go and listen to his interviews.

[Grind]

Well the way the majority of us see it they are gods. Aaron also believes them to be gods, as do the editors. So we don't get to pick and choose what they are. Only the movies have suggested they are not and even then Ragnarok strongly drifts back towards them being gods.

The only question is what does being a god mean. Which is the premise of this run. If you can't engage with that as a premise maybe Thor isn't a book for you. It is something that has been explored multiple times in the canon in various ways.

For some of us Thor is at his most bland when he is like a normal superhero with no reference to mythology.

You are entirely wrong on Aaron's motives. Maybe go and listen to his interviews.

It doesn’t matter what “we,” the writers or editors think of Thor. That is not part of the story. In universe Asgardians are still classified as gods. In universe people may think they are aliens. You should ask how worthy is a god who only helps the people of a world in a certain geographical area? Maybe Earth was blessed with multiple pantheons. Doesn’t matter anymore because they’ve been replaced by the great religions of today. Technically Thor’s job is done. The next shift has come to work. Even then, how shaken is the faith of the average citizen of the MU when there’s aliens running around everywhere, frequent invasions and attacks by cosmic beings? I find the whole not worthy thing BS in light of all that. If this stuff happened in RL I’m sure there would be a church of Galactus right next to the Jedi church that really exists.

[JKtheMac]

It doesn’t matter what “we,” the writers or editors think of Thor. That is not part of the story. In universe Asgardians are still classified as gods. In universe people may think they are aliens. You should ask how worthy is a god who only helps the people of a world in a certain geographical area? Maybe Earth was blessed with multiple pantheons. Doesn’t matter anymore because they’ve been replaced by the great religions of today. Technically Thor’s job is done. The next shift has come to work. Even then, how shaken is the faith of the average citizen of the MU when there’s aliens running around everywhere, frequent invasions and attacks by cosmic beings? I find the whole not worthy thing BS in light of all that. If this stuff happened in RL I’m sure there would be a church of Galactus right next to the Jedi church that really exists.

However Thor is a very high profile superhero in the MU and he will undoubtedly attract attention, just as he did in Spiral (with a push from Loki). It isn't quite our world.

Why would any of these concerns suggest that this story is either not worth exploring or not a suitable Thor story. As one of the most successful Marvel comics right now it seems to be finding an audience.

[pugbuddy]

Nobody is saying anyone is worshipping them. That is kind of the point don't you think? They are not relevant to mortals. How can one be a legitimate god when there is no relationship between mortals and gods? You have just turned the point on its head. One could equally rip apart the Spider-Man premise in the same way.

It may fall flat for you, but I find it strange that it falls flat for long term readers of a book about gods, because surely that is the point of a book about a god? With divine power comes divine responsibility.

While I agree that Thor has no real responsibility to mortals but there have been hints in the past, usually small scenes, where he does in fact state he has some kind of responsibility to Midgard (and even Odin has made a nod or two to this on occasion). Maybe that's just his like for mortals or something similar but it is there. In the MU, the gods are not completely separated from the mortal sphere even if they rarely pay attention to it. But the other side of that is dependence, and there has never, to my knowledge been actual dependence between Asgard and Earth.

Thor wasn't swayed by Gor's words he learned that they were true. There is a big difference.

And this I don't get. How did he "learn" they were true? Gor never said anything of actual substance during the entire run (that I recall; he did rant a lot but it was all shallow stuff that might come out of any maniacal villain's mouth). His "son" made a rather silly and shallow statement to the younger Thor but that is about all that was ever given. So I don't recall anything about a "learning moment", much less one that would completely change Thor's worldview about every god in the MU!

Again, I don't care for the direction Aaron has gone and I'm pretty much indifferent to she-Thor. If people are enjoying this run (and it's obvious that many are), I'm happy for them. But I'll be even happier when Thor returns (wielding Mjolnir) and Jane's run is over.

[JKtheMac]

While I agree that Thor has no real responsibility to mortals but there have been hints in the past, usually small scenes, where he does in fact state he has some kind of responsibility to Midgard (and even Odin has made a nod or two to this on occasion). Maybe that's just his like for mortals or something similar but it is there. In the MU, the gods are not completely separated from the mortal sphere even if they rarely pay attention to it. But the other side of that is dependence, and there has never, to my knowledge been actual dependence between Asgard and Earth.

And Aaron is exploring that.

And this I don't get. How did he "learn" they were true? Gor never said anything of actual substance during the entire run (that I recall; he did rant a lot but it was all shallow stuff that might come out of any maniacal villain's mouth). His "son" made a rather silly and shallow statement to the younger Thor but that is about all that was ever given. So I don't recall anything about a "learning moment", much less one that would completely change Thor's worldview about every god in the MU!

Fury confirmed to him the actual truth of the matter. That the gods are not worthy of mortals. There is a simple underlying logic, even if you don't get it. For further discussion see my recent posts over at the appreciation forum showing Aaron's own opionion on the issue and also exploring the crucial moment in Unworthy Thor. I have gone over this in other single issue threads and many times elsewhere on these forums in the past but it really isn't pertinent to #701.

[kalai]

still wondering what happened to the all black necro blade in the future.
From Civil War 2#8, it seems like future Loki is gonna get hold of it and challenge the Odinson with a hammer?

[Thursaiz]

Fury confirmed to him the actual truth of the matter. That the gods are not worthy of mortals. There is a simple underlying logic, even if you don't get it. For further discussion see my recent posts over at the appreciation forum showing Aaron's own opionion on the issue and also exploring the crucial moment in Unworthy Thor.

See, I don't buy this explanation at all. Odin gave Mjolnir the enchantment, and what is 'worthy' is determined by him. Not Fury, not Gor, not mortals, or anyone else. Odin wouldn't have cared if mortals didn't think the Gods were worthy, and has stated on multiple occasions throughout the entire series that Thor shouldn't even bother with humans, as mortals are beneath him. Aaron has retconned and twisted the history of the character and the deity to suit a story that might work in 2017. If Aaron is going to go by 'what does it mean to be a god', then the original character from the Eddas and Sagas should be explored. Thor didn't give a rat's ass about what mortals thought of him. None of the other Aesir or Vanir did. In fact, there are very few stories about Thor that have anything to do with people on Midgard.

The whole story involving Jane with the hammer came about due to the diversity angle. It was one of the few that actually sold issues, so they've kept it going. But as another user said, the whole 'unworthy' angle has played out before, and has been done to death. A better story would have involved Jane getting her own hammer to try and prove that she was better. Replacing existing characters and taking their name is a marketing ploy to sell books. If the book had been called 'Lightning Jane' or something (definitely much more thoughtful), this would have puttered out after three issues. Regardless of who was writing.

Ask the folks at your LCS. People are reading this to see when Thor is coming back, and they're tired of this story. My LCS went from having 10+ issues brought in and have dropped to two for people who subscribe. I still say give her a hammer and name of her own, and let the readers decide whether or not she has the momentum to stay.

[JKtheMac]

@Thursaiz
Just dont buy it then. You are clearly not reading the book anyway. Most of your arguments are based on things that have either never been canon or became non-canonical decades ago. And in general anyone that thinks this is based upon a diversity issue or that people buy the book to hate follow it until the "real Thor" comes back is deluding themselves.

This is a thread about #701 not a thread about dismissing the premise of the whole run.

[pugbuddy]

Fury confirmed to him the actual truth of the matter. That the gods are not worthy of mortals. There is a simple underlying logic, even if you don't get it. For further discussion see my recent posts over at the appreciation forum showing Aaron's own opionion on the issue and also exploring the crucial moment in Unworthy Thor. I have gone over this in other single issue threads and many times elsewhere on these forums in the past but it really isn't pertinent to #701.

It's a classic "O-Ring" argument. What exactly was Fury confirming that Thor actually believed? "That gods are not worthy of mortals." When did Thor start believing that? He never has in the past. "He started to believe it when Fury confirmed it."

But I'll drop it in this discussion. As you said, it is not directly related to 701.