Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[Jokerz79]

This is what really gets me about this point of view though...it's largely supported by the villains. Why should we take what they're saying at face value?

They have a vested interest in driving a wedge between the Doctor and his companions, by making him doubt them or question his connection to them them it makes the villain's plans more likely to succeed as it robs the Doctor of his support structure and allies in combating the villain. So with that in mind the purpose of those scenes isn't to say that what the villains are saying is true...it's that opposite is the actual truth.

Truth doesn't always come from pleasant sources.

I personally believe due to the vastness of the universe it's possible there is intelligent alien life in it. But I do not believe aliens have ever visited Earth any longer than to do a "fly over" and have never adducted anyone or are secretly here. Why? Because any species that achieved interstellar space travel couldn't possibly see humanity in its current state as anything worth wild.

We are vain, greedy, manipulative, jealous, violent, and blood thirsty species. Animals kill for survival we kill for fun yet we're better than them, well that's what happens when you're top of the food chain and get to write the rules.

Everything a villain has ever said about humanity is true. But also, on the flip side we're also hopeful, kind, generous, loving, artistic, clever, and compassionate. That's why I love Star Trek I love the idea that one day we can unite and let go of the negative and move forward with our positives. Yet even Star Trek takes a romanticized view of humanity to almost a colonialist point. The Federation through humanities guidance has brought enlightenment to the universe basically taming the "savages" even the Vulcans in ENT were transformed into a better version of themselves through human intervention.

I love that the Doctor looks at his companions as the best of humanity and through them sees what makes us a worth wild species to invest in. But again, on the flipside Gwen said it best in Torchwood.

https://youtu.be/8FswjRpmFXU

We have a speciesism view of ourselves that of course an ancient being with super intelligence could fall in love with a pretty girl from London with Avenge human intelligence. That makes perfect sense. Or does it make more sense some fans wanted to fantasize about going through Time and Space with their crush and them loving them back?

[thwhtGuardian]

Truth doesn't always come from pleasant sources.

I personally believe due to the vastness of the universe it's possible there is intelligent alien life in it. But I do not believe aliens have ever visited Earth any longer than to do a "fly over" and have never adducted anyone or are secretly here. Why? Because any species that achieved interstellar space travel couldn't possibly see humanity in its current state as anything worth wild.

We are vain, greedy, manipulative, jealous, violent, and blood thirsty species. Animals kill for survival we kill for fun yet we're better than them, well that's what happens when you're top of the food chain and get to write the rules.

Everything a villain has ever said about humanity is true. But also, on the flip side we're also hopeful, kind, generous, loving, artistic, clever, and compassionate. That's why I love Star Trek I love the idea that one day we can unite and let go of the negative and move forward with our positives. Yet even Star Trek takes a romanticized view of humanity to almost a colonialist point. The Federation through humanities guidance has brought enlightenment to the universe basically taming the "savages" even the Vulcans in ENT were transformed into a better version of themselves through human intervention.

I love that the Doctor looks at his companions as the best of humanity and through them sees what makes us a worth wild species to invest in. But again, on the flipside Gwen said it best in Torchwood.

https://youtu.be/8FswjRpmFXU

We have a speciesism view of ourselves that of course an ancient being with super intelligence could fall in love with a pretty girl from London with Avenge human intelligence. That makes perfect sense. Or does it make more sense some fans wanted to fantasize about going through Time and Space with their crush and them loving them back?

That's not the "truth" being presented by the stories though, that's just you reading cynicism into it and believe me I'm plenty cynical as I don't think humanity is ever reaching the stars but that doesn't change the fact that in the scenes brought up here it's very clear you're not meant to ultimately agree with the villain's perspective. They have logical points of view but they are there to give the villains pathos in order to make them compelling characters rather than mustachio twirling antagonists. The villains aren't the mouth pieces for truth in these stories, and we know this because it is why they are soundly defeated each and every time, and those defeats are not just the hero beating the character but the writers refuting the philosophies brought forward by those villains. It's a very basic component of storytelling.

Could the Doctor be written more cynically and be more detached and truly alien from his companions? Sure, and that would certainly be interesting to see...but it would largely be an interesting characterization specifically because it was different than what came before. I'm not opposed to seeing Who go down that route, I just think it's wrong to try and say that it's a point of view that has historically been true.

[Nate Grey]

This is what really gets me about this point of view though...it's largely supported by the villains. Why should we take what they're saying at face value?

They have a vested interest in driving a wedge between the Doctor and his companions, by making him doubt them or question his connection to them them it makes the villain's plans more likely to succeed as it robs the Doctor of his support structure and allies in combating the villain. So with that in mind the purpose of those scenes isn't to say that what the villains are saying is true...it's that opposite is the actual truth.

I'm not quite sure why you quoted us (Jokerz79 and I) together, since I explicitly believe the Doctor DOES NOT view his companions as pets and he/she does.

I'll try this again though:

The Doctor feels for his companions in a way that is way more than that of a pet. Everyone, including his enemies, can see it. The clip wasn't that it must be true since it's coming out of Davros's mouth, it was that he saw it as a weakness to be exploited. It was up to the Doctor to turn it around and show it was actually a strength to be celebrated. Which he did. But it would have been true if the ep didn't exist, if Davros (and Missy) never noticed nor made commentary, if that's a sticking point. What he feels for them is closer in interpretation to that of a parent to a child (and, again, more than a pet), but still less than a lover which was my overriding point all along. But that point can be lost by the companions themselves when they try to reconcile what they feel for him.

[Tendrin]

We are vain, greedy, manipulative, jealous, violent, and blood thirsty species. Animals kill for survival we kill for fun yet we're better than them, well that's what happens when you're top of the food chain and get to write the rules.

There are numerous examples of animals killing for the 'fun' of it. :P

[Nate Grey]

That's another thing, the Time Lords have proven again and again the only thing they have over humans is their technology and longevity. They are otherwise just as "vain, greedy, manipulative, jealous, violent, and blood thirsty" as we are if not moreso.

[Jokerz79]

There are numerous examples of animals killing for the 'fun' of it. :P

I saw a girl with 6 toes on each foot the aberration shouldn't be considered the norm. Animals usually only kill for survival purposes to protect their resources, for food, and mating. Your response proves my point I pointed to many examples to the positives of humanity, yet you focused on a negative and try to explain it away but not by defending humanity but by trying to bring animals to our level.

There is an argument to be made animals don't have the resources to be able to waste energy (Calories) on hunting for fun unlike humans. But we are currently the only species on who has regularly killed for fun and entertainment in history.

Of course, Time Lords share our negative qualities how else can writers show the nobility of humanity if not?

[ChrisIII]

That's another thing, the Time Lords have proven again and again the only thing they have over humans is their technology and longevity. They are otherwise just as "vain, greedy, manipulative, jealous, violent, and blood thirsty" as we are if not moreso.

There seems to be a sort of lower class on Gallifrey (Shobogans?) that's seen a few times that it might be where the Doctor originally came from (Well, at least before the Timeless Child stuff which implies he might come from another universe entirely). Time Lords largely seem to be mainly the 'elite'. It's possible the Doctor maybe got sponsored by somebody to make it to a Time Lord-that somebody probably being the Master (RTD seems to imply that the Master was possibly part of that elite.)

[Tendrin]

I saw a girl with 6 toes on each foot the aberration shouldn't be considered the norm. Animals usually only kill for survival purposes to protect their resources, for food, and mating. Your response proves my point I pointed to many examples to the positives of humanity, yet you focused on a negative and try to explain it away but not by defending humanity but by trying to bring animals to our level.

Yeah, that's not the truth and these aren't aberrations: ask any cat owner. https://infographicsmania.com/cats-love-murder/

We're just not so separate from animals as we'd like to believe and that goes for both our good *and* bad qualities. I mean, dude, just look at some of the facts about sea otters.

[Matt Rat]

So this video went live yesterday, noone can tell if this is meant to be a fanfilm or viral marketing from RTD

[thwhtGuardian]

So this video went live yesterday, noone can tell if this is meant to be a fanfilm or viral marketing from RTD

It's gotta be fan made, they literally used a picture of Elon Musk as Elon Magpie. I could have almost bought it with just the name as a play on Musk but actually using his image? That can't be official.

[ChrisIII]

So some of the footage/pics from Jodie's finale show Sacha's Master clean-shaven. Kind of wonder if this means they'll meet him out of sequence, as Sacha's Master's beard grew throughout season 12.

Meaning shortly after regenerating from Missy? Either that or he just shaved.

[Nate Grey]

"After Missy" would technically be correct, but unless there's an on-screen regeneration showing otherwise, what happened in Big Finish stands and Sacha's Master would have to be what the Lumiat regenerated into (and the Lumiat is what Missy directly regenerated into).

[ChrisIII]

They're releasing season 2 (Original) on Blu-ray. Makes sense since I think that apart from Troughton's season 6 it's one of the more complete B & W seasons, as I think it's only missing a bit of The Crusade.

[Somecrazyaussie]

They're releasing season 2 (Original) on Blu-ray. Makes sense since I think that apart from Troughton's season 6 it's one of the more complete B & W seasons, as I think it's only missing a bit of The Crusade.

2 episodes of the Crusade.

So, will they be animated?

Edit: just checked and we are getting reconstructions. Really infuriates me they can't spend a bit to animate two outstanding episodes.

[Matt Rat]

Doctor Who Magazine is covering the centenary special next issue.