Doctor Who IV - Everything Whovian - Would you like a jelly baby?

[The Whovian]

I always liked Matt Smiths opening theme, Capaldis seemed like a step backwards

Tennant's was my favorite. But I agree with you, Capaldi's was a little too metallic for me.

[The Whovian]

Really enjoyed that.
They had me at David Bradley playing William Hartnell playing the first Doctor.

Bradley is 75, Hartnell was 55 when he first played the Doctor, but they look the same.
I find that interesting for some reason.

Yes. I can't get over how well he played Hartnell. Bradley was great

[Elden]

Yes. I can't get over how well he played Hartnell. Bradley was great

He was appalling. A dire sexist caricature bearing no resemblance to the brilliant character created by William Hartnell.

That they bought back the best incarnation only to treat him with such disrespect and dire writing was a shame. It shouldn't have been done.

Thank God Moffat is already leaving because if he were continuing I'd give up on the show for what he'd done to it.

[Cyke]

He was appalling. A dire sexist caricature bearing no resemblance to the brilliant character created by William Hartnell.

That they bought back the best incarnation only to treat him with such disrespect and dire writing was a shame. It shouldn't have been done.

Thank God Moffat is already leaving because if he were continuing I'd give up on the show for what he'd done to it.

I can't say for sure without going back if the First was as blatantly sexist as he was here, but the action scenes tended to involve the male companions, and the First would tend to be a bit condescending in protecting the women or telling them to stay put (indeed, that his intentions were to protect them, but that he sometimes did it in sexist ways, is present all over 1960s TV). He may not have been blatantly sexist back then, but getting a typical 1960s character, plant him in today's world without any adjustment, and he'll definitely come off as blatantly sexist -- heck, that was one of the major points of Mad Men. Only Sal was safe from exuding toxic male power (when he wasn't keeping up appearances), and even then that ended up getting him fired!

ANYWAY, back to the show...

I can't talk about how much I loved it. Time of the Doctor kind of bored me and End of Time was overly sentimental. Parting of the Ways got straight to the point but didn't have the advantage of length or being such a spectacle such as this one.

One thought that's greatly enhanced my appreciation of the episode is the treatment of the First Doctor itself. It's only natural that, as time goes on, that plots become more complex, special effects become more colorful, conflicts become more imaginative. The First Doctor here faces things he never ever did in his own run, like frozen time (what a wonderful closeup), computer-generated glass people, the very center of the universe, or even jumping from one TARDIS to the next. His show obviously never had the budget or capacity to show a planet in constant explosion like an egg or floating spheres of video archives or a set lit like the Chamber of the Dead. Hell, he never faced anything as conceptual as the Testimony or existential like the Chamber of the Dead, or even faced technobabble of that extent. Even if we count his multi-doctor stories, each one gets more bombastic and bigger in scale than the last, and definitely well beyond his TV run. And the writing aimed to make one sympathetic for the First Doctor when he found out the scope of each successor's "war crimes;" that the Doctor is inherently peaceful but finds his legacy full of violence is incredibly tragic.

AND YET, the First Doctor not only holds his one in of the most NuWho-type adventures in the history of the revival, he reminds the modern Twelve of things and skills he used to do, of clues he would pick up when he was younger. He gets straight to the point. He is wise. Which, to me, is a testament to the Doctor's overall central character. The situations may get worse and the solutions may be more mindblowing and the special effects may get bigger and madder, but he is never truly out of his element (I mean, he'll start out like that, but give him some time...).

The future will always get more and more imaginative and offer twists and turns we could barely dream of in the present. But the Doctor -- starting with the First -- will always be more than a match for whatever the future throws at them. "Madness was never this good," but the Doctor will always make sense of it all.

And now for the rest --

- It was good to hear Murray Gold's greatest hits. Sure, I've complained about him a number of times on this thread, but putting in 12+ years of work is incredibly impressive, no doubt about it.

- Obviously, I'm going to miss Capaldi. I can't wait for Jodie Whittaker's first full episode, but we're off to a good start.

- With that said, I'm going to miss Capaldi's speeches and his gradual turn into essentially a personified, walking version of any given late 80s/early 90s Peter Gabriel song

- Also that, I can't help but compare Capaldi's goodbye to Enterprise's infamous These Are the Voyages, where a previous "star" became the focus of a finale. Except, where Enterprise went wrong by making its stars the supporting cast in someone else's story, the First served to bring Twelve back to his roots and realize fundamental truths about himself, thus advancing the character further. Bradley was used the right amount, it didn't seem fanwanky, and we essentially got Twelve's own greatest hits.

- It was pretty obvious that Jenna Cole filmed her big scene separately, right? Whatever the reason may be -- because of scheduling or to prevent spoilers or whatever, I really wish "Clara" could have met "Bill" and "Nardole"

- Oh, and I greatly missed Bill.

- Connecting the Captain to the Lethbridge-Stuart line was a bit contrived even in a show about exploring the infinity of space and time. But it's also a Christmas special, so we're bound to get those cosmic coincidences anyway (speaking of which, when the Captain asks the Doctors for a favor right before death, I was charmed by Bradley's simple delivery of, "We should be so delighted!" As stern and as blunt as the First has always been, he's also a kind, compassionate man)

- as well, I tend to really dislike Christmas specials -- they're usually more miss than hit for me. But Capaldi knocked this one out of the park. It may or may not be the best Christmas special, but it's right away one of my faves

- Moffat loves his bookends and much has been said about how Capaldi's eyes were the focus for both his intro and then his exit. But for Moffat himself, of course he had to throw in a montage of Doctors similar to the Thirteenth Hour (complete with glowy spheres)

- I always get a kick out of seeing the new Doctor in the previous Doctor's clothes. It's a small pleasure for me, but they did it once again, so I'm good.

- Lastly, and likely unfairly, Whittaker has more weight on her shoulders to succeed as the Doctor since Eccleston with the revival of an entire iconic franchise or perhaps even Troughton on convincingly selling the very idea of regeneration in the first place. I'll tune in for her first full episode, and I wish her the very best of luck. We've given eleven guys the benefit of the doubt without framing it as giving it to them by default because they're men. We didn't give Tom Baker his first shot at his defining role by saying, "He's a man, that's most of the job done." We owe her the same opportunity. She was hired not just because she's a woman, but because she could very well be the most capable woman on the planet to tackle the role currently. We should give her the benefit of the doubt just as much as we gave it to everyone from Troughton to Capaldi.

[Kyer]

Liked the Doctors and the Captain plus his resolve. Rest of plot was a bit lame.
Upset the cable TV schedule made it look like I might have another 30-minutes with The Doctor once One left, but turned out the extra time was for a reminisce special.
Really tired of Blow Up Tardis as an excuse to redecorate.
The Time Lady is going to get rescued by Me/Clara and Diner, isn't she? Not that I care enough to find out. Only interest left is if one of the Doctors returns for another special episodes or they find more missing episodes from Hartnell and Troughton eras.
1979 thru 2017...it was a blast. Going to miss the character.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I wouldn't mind if the new theme was done by capaldi on guitar bit i doubt that will happen. The episode over all was kind of a dud. At least for me. I don't see any reason why he couldnt have died at the end of the season and have the Christmas special be his first episode. We haven't had that since remnant have we? Or was capaldi's first a whole year after Smith's last.

Capaldi did his own on the guitar. It was a series 9 episode (the title eludes me at present.)

[Miles To Go]

He was appalling. A dire sexist caricature bearing no resemblance to the brilliant character created by William Hartnell.

That they bought back the best incarnation only to treat him with such disrespect and dire writing was a shame. It shouldn't have been done.

Thank God Moffat is already leaving because if he were continuing I'd give up on the show for what he'd done to it.

Moffat is fine. I don't get people's problem with him. People hated RTD too back in the day, and rever him now. I suspect the same will be true of Moffat.

The Time Lady is going to get rescued by Me/Clara and Diner, isn't she? Not that I care enough to find out.

Clara's not coming back mate. Her cameo here was for closure purposes only. New showrunner, new characters, new way of doing things.

1979 thru 2017...it was a blast. Going to miss the character.

Doctor Who is going to be fine. Your loss if you miss out.

[Punisher007]

Especially since it has a new actress in the role, new companions, a new showrunner, etc. If you're writing it off NOW because of what the previous team (who are leaving) did, then that's just, puzzling, imo.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I can't say for sure without going back if the First was as blatantly sexist as he was here, but the action scenes tended to involve the male companions, and the First would tend to be a bit condescending in protecting the women or telling them to stay put (indeed, that his intentions were to protect them, but that he sometimes did it in sexist ways, is present all over 1960s TV). He may not have been blatantly sexist back then, but getting a typical 1960s character, plant him in today's world without any adjustment, and he'll definitely come off as blatantly sexist -- heck, that was one of the major points of Mad Men. Only Sal was safe from exuding toxic male power (when he wasn't keeping up appearances), and even then that ended up getting him fired!

ANYWAY, back to the show...

I can't talk about how much I loved it. Time of the Doctor kind of bored me and End of Time was overly sentimental. Parting of the Ways got straight to the point but didn't have the advantage of length or being such a spectacle such as this one.

One thought that's greatly enhanced my appreciation of the episode is the treatment of the First Doctor itself. It's only natural that, as time goes on, that plots become more complex, special effects become more colorful, conflicts become more imaginative. The First Doctor here faces things he never ever did in his own run, like frozen time (what a wonderful closeup), computer-generated glass people, the very center of the universe, or even jumping from one TARDIS to the next. His show obviously never had the budget or capacity to show a planet in constant explosion like an egg or floating spheres of video archives or a set lit like the Chamber of the Dead. Hell, he never faced anything as conceptual as the Testimony or existential like the Chamber of the Dead, or even faced technobabble of that extent. Even if we count his multi-doctor stories, each one gets more bombastic and bigger in scale than the last, and definitely well beyond his TV run. And the writing aimed to make one sympathetic for the First Doctor when he found out the scope of each successor's "war crimes;" that the Doctor is inherently peaceful but finds his legacy full of violence is incredibly tragic.

AND YET, the First Doctor not only holds his one in of the most NuWho-type adventures in the history of the revival, he reminds the modern Twelve of things and skills he used to do, of clues he would pick up when he was younger. He gets straight to the point. He is wise. Which, to me, is a testament to the Doctor's overall central character. The situations may get worse and the solutions may be more mindblowing and the special effects may get bigger and madder, but he is never truly out of his element (I mean, he'll start out like that, but give him some time...).

The future will always get more and more imaginative and offer twists and turns we could barely dream of in the present. But the Doctor -- starting with the First -- will always be more than a match for whatever the future throws at them. "Madness was never this good," but the Doctor will always make sense of it all.

And now for the rest --

- It was good to hear Murray Gold's greatest hits. Sure, I've complained about him a number of times on this thread, but putting in 12+ years of work is incredibly impressive, no doubt about it.

- Obviously, I'm going to miss Capaldi. I can't wait for Jodie Whittaker's first full episode, but we're off to a good start.

- With that said, I'm going to miss Capaldi's speeches and his gradual turn into essentially a personified, walking version of any given late 80s/early 90s Peter Gabriel song

- Also that, I can't help but compare Capaldi's goodbye to Enterprise's infamous These Are the Voyages, where a previous "star" became the focus of a finale. Except, where Enterprise went wrong by making its stars the supporting cast in someone else's story, the First served to bring Twelve back to his roots and realize fundamental truths about himself, thus advancing the character further. Bradley was used the right amount, it didn't seem fanwanky, and we essentially got Twelve's own greatest hits.

- It was pretty obvious that Jenna Cole filmed her big scene separately, right? Whatever the reason may be -- because of scheduling or to prevent spoilers or whatever, I really wish "Clara" could have met "Bill" and "Nardole"

- Oh, and I greatly missed Bill.

- Connecting the Captain to the Lethbridge-Stuart line was a bit contrived even in a show about exploring the infinity of space and time. But it's also a Christmas special, so we're bound to get those cosmic coincidences anyway (speaking of which, when the Captain asks the Doctors for a favor right before death, I was charmed by Bradley's simple delivery of, "We should be so delighted!" As stern and as blunt as the First has always been, he's also a kind, compassionate man)

- as well, I tend to really dislike Christmas specials -- they're usually more miss than hit for me. But Capaldi knocked this one out of the park. It may or may not be the best Christmas special, but it's right away one of my faves

- Moffat loves his bookends and much has been said about how Capaldi's eyes were the focus for both his intro and then his exit. But for Moffat himself, of course he had to throw in a montage of Doctors similar to the Thirteenth Hour (complete with glowy spheres)

- I always get a kick out of seeing the new Doctor in the previous Doctor's clothes. It's a small pleasure for me, but they did it once again, so I'm good.

- Lastly, and likely unfairly, Whittaker has more weight on her shoulders to succeed as the Doctor since Eccleston with the revival of an entire iconic franchise or perhaps even Troughton on convincingly selling the very idea of regeneration in the first place. I'll tune in for her first full episode, and I wish her the very best of luck. We've given eleven guys the benefit of the doubt without framing it as giving it to them by default because they're men. We didn't give Tom Baker his first shot at his defining role by saying, "He's a man, that's most of the job done." We owe her the same opportunity. She was hired not just because she's a woman, but because she could very well be the most capable woman on the planet to tackle the role currently. We should give her the benefit of the doubt just as much as we gave it to everyone from Troughton to Capaldi.

The First Doctor wasn't sexist towards his female companions. Bit hard when he had Barbara (one of the strongest female characters in the shows history) beside him. He originally saw himself and susan as being above Ian and Barbara. However that behaviour mellowed over time as they earned his respect. The only occasion where he was sexist before was in The Five Doctors when he suggests Tegan help in making tea. But, like here, it was playing up the fact that the First Doctors tenure occurred during the height of sexism (a few years removed from Women's Liberation in the late 60s/early 70s.) Mostly sending it up for laughs.

Do I agree with that approach? No. I mean, once or twice, maybe. But Moffat laid the gag on far too thick. Plus I think he was slightly taking the piss with The First Doctor since Twelve was going to Regenerate into a woman. In the end, I guess we can allow him his slight indulgences, given it is his last episode.

This special wasn't too bad, but it was very thin on plot. The performances and direction really sold this one.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Moffat is fine. I don't get people's problem with him. People hated RTD too back in the day, and rever him now. I suspect the same will be true of Moffat.



Clara's not coming back mate. Her cameo here was for closure purposes only. New showrunner, new characters, new way of doing things.



Doctor Who is going to be fine. Your loss if you miss out.

Moffat has only really had one great series (series 5). Two good ones ( series 9 and 10). Two average one (series 8 and 7B) and two stinkers (7A and series 6). Moffat is a great ideas man. However, he only excelled when he was limited to one or two episodes per series. His batting average as showrunner is very hit and miss.

I also think Moffat hung on for three seasons too many. If his tenure had been limited to Smith, we might look on him more favorably. With Smith he had a clear beginning, middle, and end. Once Capaldi came in, Moffat was at a loss regarding which direction he wanted Twelve to go in. Although, I do recognize he had planned on Smith sticking around longer. The one thing I disliked with Moffat was his insistence on "No one dies!" Clara had two great exits, but he ruined both by bringing her back again. Then he pulled the same stunt with Bill and Wet Heather.

I applaud RTD for getting out at the right time. What I disliked with him is that he brought in too much soap opera elements into the show. Plus he always wrote himself into a corner and relied on deus ex machina's to get out of it. On the whole though, he was a much better showrunner than Moffat. The only weak series he did was series 2. Series 1 and 4 were phenomenal. While series 3 was good-great. His series finales (apart from Series 1) were resolved in the laziest ways possible.

[protege]

Moffat has only really had one great series (series 5). Two good ones ( series 9 and 10). Two average one (series 8 and 7B) and two stinkers (7A and series 6). Moffat is a great ideas man. However, he only excelled when he was limited to one or two episodes per series. His batting average as showrunner is very hit and miss.

I also think Moffat hung on for three seasons too many. If his tenure had been limited to Smith, we might look on him more favorably. With Smith he had a clear beginning, middle, and end. Once Capaldi came in, Moffat was at a loss regarding which direction he wanted Twelve to go in. Although, I do recognize he had planned on Smith sticking around longer. The one thing I disliked with Moffat was his insistence on "No one dies!" Clara had two great exits, but he ruined both by bringing her back again. Then he pulled the same stunt with Bill and Wet Heather.

I applaud RTD for getting out at the right time. What I disliked with him is that he brought in too much soap opera elements into the show. Plus he always wrote himself into a corner and relied on deus ex machina's to get out of it. On the whole though, he was a much better showrunner than Moffat. The only weak series he did was series 2. Series 1 and 4 were phenomenal. While series 3 was good-great. His series finales (apart from Series 1) were resolved in the laziest ways possible.

I’m going to have to search my memory banks to try and figure out what you meant about showrunners and seasons, so i may come back with a more thorough response later.

[Jim Kelly]

Having rewatched the First Doctor's run so recently, I thought it weird that they played him as a sexist, when he really wasn't that sexist in the adventures that I saw. The thing about the Hartnell run is that he often isn't the star. It's the Companion and usually the male one--younger and able to jump around a lot--who takes over an adventure and sometimes solves the problem without any help from the Doctor.

The First Doctor is often put in the back seat. He's cranky, but with good reason it turns out. I can accept that Hartnell becomes Bradley because he's mid-regeneration. But why does Ben get taller and his hair change colour? Is he being zapped by regeneration energy, too? It's like they made no effort to help us transition from the original to this remake. Bradley only sometimes looks like Hartnell from certain angles. There's a lot they could have done to make him a bit more like the First--but they never really tried.

And while I'm going on about appearances, Twelve doesn't seem to be wearing lipstick, mascara or makeup before he regenerates yet the Doctor is wearing cosmetics after the regeneration. Neat trick that--but I think it would have been more convincing if they had stripped off Whittaker's makeup for the transtion. I don't think I'm being sexist here--rather the other way around--it's sexist to have a shot that focuses just on the Doctor's eyes and have those eyes done up to look "female" as if women always have to have their eyes done up to appear feminine.

One of the DW bits I like best is the post-regeneration scene where the Doctor dresses himself up to take on his new persona. So it would be better to have an unvarnished Whittaker to start out and then have her make herself up when she has the time. No instant makeover. I think the TARDIS spitting her out was one female rejecting another female. Which again is a sexist slant on female relationships--but the 21st century has been too quick to pat itself on the back for being progressive when it's really mired in its own male, white privilege.

As a big Paul McCartney fan, the first time I saw the WW I scene in this episode, I immediately thought of the video for "Pipes of Peace." So it was no surprise to me that the Christmas peace would resolve the affair. The thing that bugged me was Mark Gatiss as the Captain. Maybe it's because of how SHERLOCK ended, but Gatiss annoys me now--and it seemed vanity to put him in this episode. Another actor would have fit the part better, I think.

I appreciate that Clara spared the time out from her own Christmas Special on ITV to come back into the Doctor's memory for a couple of minutes of screen time on the BBC. I enjoyed the VICTORIA Christmas Special a lot more that this one. It had songs and dancing and timely messages of peace and understanding. All the things you want for this time of year.I guess it would have been too much to ask to have Jenna Coleman in two Christmas Specials. But Clara is the Companion that the Doctor would go through Hell to save. Bill never really earned that place--not the fault of the actress but rather Moffat not giving the Doctor his best efforts.

I was so hopeful for the Twelfth Doctor's adventures in the beginning and yet I'm left underwhelmed. Peter Capaldi deserves better.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Having rewatched the First Doctor's run so recently, I thought it weird that they played him as a sexist, when he really wasn't that sexist in the adventures that I saw. The thing about the Hartnell run is that he often isn't the star. It's the Companion and usually the male one--younger and able to jump around a lot--who takes over an adventure and sometimes solves the problem without any help from the Doctor.

The First Doctor is often put in the back seat. He's cranky, but with good reason it turns out. I can accept that Hartnell becomes Bradley because he's mid-regeneration. But why does Ben get taller and his hair change colour? Is he being zapped by regeneration energy, too? It's like they made no effort to help us transition from the original to this remake. Bradley only sometimes looks like Hartnell from certain angles. There's a lot they could have done to make him a bit more like the First--but they never really tried.

And while I'm going on about appearances, Twelve doesn't seem to be wearing lipstick, mascara or makeup before he regenerates yet the Doctor is wearing cosmetics after the regeneration. Neat trick that--but I think it would have been more convincing if they had stripped off Whittaker's makeup for the transtion. I don't think I'm being sexist here--rather the other way around--it's sexist to have a shot that focuses just on the Doctor's eyes and have those eyes done up to look "female" as if women always have to have their eyes done up to appear feminine.

One of the DW bits I like best is the post-regeneration scene where the Doctor dresses himself up to take on his new persona. So it would be better to have an unvarnished Whittaker to start out and then have her make herself up when she has the time. No instant makeover. I think the TARDIS spitting her out was one female rejecting another female. Which again is a sexist slant on female relationships--but the 21st century has been too quick to pat itself on the back for being progressive when it's really mired in its own male, white privilege.

As a big Paul McCartney fan, the first time I saw the WW I scene in this episode, I immediately thought of the video for "Pipes of Peace." So it was no surprise to me that the Christmas peace would resolve the affair. The thing that bugged me was Mark Gatiss as the Captain. Maybe it's because of how SHERLOCK ended, but Gatiss annoys me now--and it seemed vanity to put him in this episode. Another actor would have fit the part better, I think.

I appreciate that Clara spared the time out from her own Christmas Special on ITV to come back into the Doctor's memory for a couple of minutes of screen time on the BBC. I enjoyed the VICTORIA Christmas Special a lot more that this one. It had songs and dancing and timely messages of peace and understanding. All the things you want for this time of year.I guess it would have been too much to ask to have Jenna Coleman in two Christmas Specials. But Clara is the Companion that the Doctor would go through Hell to save. Bill never really earned that place--not the fault of the actress but rather Moffat not giving the Doctor his best efforts.

I was so hopeful for the Twelfth Doctor's adventures in the beginning and yet I'm left underwhelmed. Peter Capaldi deserves better.

The sexist part was Moffat having a laugh.

[Jim Kelly]

Checking IMDb, it was Robin Varley who played Michael Craze (Ben) in AN ADVENTURE IN TIME AND SPACE, while it was Jared Garfield playing Ben in "Twice Upon a Time." So now I really don't get it. Why would they cast an actor who is so unlike Michael Craze for a bit part? They should have cast someone who was a physical double, as the acting requirement was minimal. They try for accuracy when it comes to the physical sets, but not for the human characters?

Interesting note, Anneke Willis and Michael Craze were both 5'6". But I guess Polly was usually in high heels, which is why her character looked taller.

[Alhazred]

I liked the regeneration, looks like Whittaker is going to bring some joy and excitement in the vein of Tennant.

Some things I wish for the next season/series

- Someone dies. I get what Moffat tried to do with his Nobody dies politic, but it has the side effect that it reduces the pathos of the show dramatically. Things that happen on the screen must matter.

- More attention to direction and looks. Series 5 look better than the last one. If you don't have enough cash to make an special effect work... Do something else.

- New stories, new concepts, new races, new villains... Doctor Who has a vast mitology that is going to crash the character if it's used too frequently

I like Whittaker, she is a fine actress that can make the character work. Chibnall... I'm not crazy about his Who work (I liked Torchwood way more than his episodes of the main series), however, he is a competent showrunner in Broadchurch. Maybe it's not apropiate in a family show, but I think if he brings some sadness along with the joy and adventures the show will be better. It's something he is good at.

Sad is happy for deep people